113H under gear washer

[Alto Mare]

We can't come up with upgrades IF we don't understand how the reels work. A Delrin washer for under the main gear will be one of the best upgrade you'll be doing to your reel.
The washer for under the gear should act as a bearing, not drag.
The simplest way would be for you to install one, compare it to others and forget about everything else.
Do get back to us and let us know if you like it.
Sal

[Alto Mare]

CF under the main gear provides no drag. It might cause a little resistance, we are trying to avoid that and the jerky drags. Most all star drag reels have a fiber washer underneath from the factory. We are just improving on that. Put a CF of any type under your 12/0 main gear, when you catch a fish big enough to pull some locked down drag, It will be shredded. I think the delrin is the next best thing than actually having a roller bearing under the gear.

You will notice smoother drags on small reels as well

[crackerman]

We can't come up with upgrades IF we don't understand how the reels work. A Delrin washer for under the main gear will be one of the best upgrade you'll be doing to your reel.
The washer for under the gear should act as a bearing, not drag.
The simplest way would be for you to install one, compare it to others and forget about everything else.
Do get back to us and let us know if you like it.
Sal

This is where i get lost then. Main gear to gear sleeve interface. Yes, it sees the same exact pressure as the rest of the drag stack (at a higher psi, due to a smaller area) it is also only slipping at the same time and same rate the drag washers do. Delrin will cause this to happen sooner at a specific drag setting.

Maybe my concept of drags is slightly twisted.
I understand he necessity of smooth drag application, the smoother it works, the easier the fight is on every bit of gear and person attached to the fish.
But if i am not mistaken we also want as much drag as practical to fight whatever we might hook to, and taking away another friction surface reduces the a fair percentage of drag.

I have built several automatic transmissions, the drag stack is very similar to a multi disc clutch pack in a transmission, the only place bearings are used in the clutch pack is to keep side loading and end play kf the shaft to a minimum. The same principals apply to the drag stack, the toothed end of the gear sleeve to the drag star is a shaft, the drags prevent its turning against the main gear. Whether the washers are inside or outside the main gear and interact with the gear sleeve in a way that causes traction to the washer. The only place i could see a delrin washer is under gear sleeve, between it and the bridge.

Am i overlooking a key operation to the drag stack?
I am new to the big reel fishing game and seeing what ittakes to upgrade or replace drag washers and such, but mechanical things i am very familiar to, as well as the theories behind their operation. (No, not an engineer, mercedes benz technician, auto hobbyist)
I dont want to sound like i am arguing, merely trying to understand why this is being referred to as a "better" practice. And if it for sure works, i will need enough delrin to whip up 2 for a 12/0 and one for. 113hlw.

[Shark Hunter]

I Tell you what crackerman,
Send me a PM with your address, and I will send you a piece of delrin.
The drag happens inside the gear, not out of it.

[Alto Mare]

Hi Sal, I agree I just put a Delrin undergear in a 113 and it seems smoother. I worry about the C/F washer swelling or shredding and interfering with the dog. I guess I'll have to change over the whole arsenal. They mostly have the standard Penn fiber washers because of my fear of the C/F undergear.

Glad you're giving it a shot John but we're not done yet .
I'm currently testing a Derlin spacer



These will make cranking the star under stress much easier, the will also help with keeping the gear aligned and best of all.... smoothness.
I'm liking the results so far, the reel feels very smooth. I'm really pushing it hard and looks like the Delrin is holding up nicely.
I'm trying to find the proper size, but not having luck, I'm getting very close though, nothing that a drill and sandpaper couldn't fix.
The guys at McMaster-Carr are awesome, John sent me some samples for me to play with.
Of course these won't work with the easy access drag system for the larger Senators, but McMaster-Carr does carry solid round stock for our machinists here to work with , I'm sure they could make us some cool looking top hats

[bluefish69]

I know someone taking out the Bearing on Newell's & replacing them with Delrin.

Mike

[Alto Mare]

Hay Mike, is he a member? Let him show you a pic, I would love to see it.

[Keta]

I know someone taking out the Bearing on Newell's & replacing them with Delrin.

Mike

Good move, for most reel applications roller bearings are not needed and can be a PIA.

[Alto Mare]

The spacer for the 113H is very close, just a little sanding on the ID



Reels feel very nice,  the sleeve acts as a spacer and bearing.

[Keta]

Will Delrin compress?

[Alto Mare]

Will Delrin compress?

http://www.mcmaster.com/#8574kac/=t08esg

[Tightlines667]

Which Delron composite are you guys using?  PTFE base?  I have a lot of confidence in the white washers Penn uses throughout their International II line of reels.  Does anyone know what this stuff is exactly?  Seems a bit more flexable/plyable then the black stuff Daron sent from McMasterCarr. 

[basto]

Hi Sal
ABU have been using a "plastic" spacer under the star wheel for decades. Have a look at the tutorials from Big T for 7000 and 10000 reels.
They are great engineers those Swedes.
It would be interesting to hear Mr Tani`s opinion on the washer under the main gear.

[Alto Mare]

Which Delron composite are you guys using?  PTFE base?  I have a lot of confidence in the white washers Penn uses throughout their International II line of reels.  Does anyone know what this stuff is exactly?  Seems a bit more flexable/plyable then the black stuff Daron sent from McMasterCarr. 

This is what I'm using
http://www.mcmaster.com/#acetal-homopolymer-sheets/=t0esd9
Ultra-Wear-Resistant PTFE-Filled Delrin® Acetal Resin


The Penn thrust washers are good, but too soft.  I like these better,black is better than white.

[Alto Mare]

Hi Sal
ABU have been using a "plastic" spacer under the star wheel for decades. Have a look at the tutorials from Big T for 7000 and 10000 reels.
They are great engineers those Swedes.
It would be interesting to hear Mr Tani`s opinion on the washer under the main gear.

Basto, I couldn't find any pictures on the 7000, but did find some on the ABU 10000. That sleeve is more like a cover plate, unless I'm looking at the wrong place.
The spacer on the 113H is working as a bearing and spacer for the drag stack. If you look at the specs you will see that the Delrin has some very good numbers on when compressed, it will still work as a bearing with very little friction...almost none.