Gear Materials - Compatability

[Alto Mare]

I would say that your experience tells you they possibly got it right the second time?

Very likely that someone put in an error they were brass, but corrected it in subsequent literature, particularly as they have gotten some pushback on other sites from people with the same questions.

Depending on the alloys and treatment involved, Bronze can be harder than stainless. As well, as I understand it, having differing levels of hardness in the gears actually decreases wear as one "gives" (bends microscopically) rather than wears from contact with the other. When you hear gear noise it is wear though, hard stainless holds up very well of course.

John, thanks for always giving us detailed explanations, but now I'm puzzled on why Penn uses stainless steel gears in most of their latest reels

[johndtuttle]

I would say that your experience tells you they possibly got it right the second time?

Very likely that someone put in an error they were brass, but corrected it in subsequent literature, particularly as they have gotten some pushback on other sites from people with the same questions.

Depending on the alloys and treatment involved, Bronze can be harder than stainless. As well, as I understand it, having differing levels of hardness in the gears actually decreases wear as one "gives" (bends microscopically) rather than wears from contact with the other. When you hear gear noise it is wear though, hard stainless holds up very well of course.

John, thanks for always giving us detailed explanations, but now I'm puzzled on why Penn uses stainless steel gears in most of their latest reels

As does Avet and Accurate etc. Note they are a bit noisier than the comparable Daiwa or Shimano as they are stainless on stainless.

It comes down to the alloys chosen etc. Stainless on Stainless tends to get quieter over time (ie "lap" in), whereas the other, tends to get rougher. I think we also would find that the treatment of the Pinions/alloy chosen are not identical to the Main gears. I haven't asked to be sure.

[jurelometer]

Hi Sal & Livinus,

Thanks for your replies. That all makes perfectly good sense, BUT!!!

Here's the issue – a perfectly good reel, one that we have been using for over 3 years down here in southern Africa, which has through that time developed a solid reputation as a fast casting, and robust reel that has no design issues or flaws after such a time of our hardworking environment – has a brass pinion and a stainless steel main.

To date, and we were the first in Namibia to start using these reels, we have never had any issue with pinion gears wearing – even as an authorised service centre for that marque. The reel was the Finnor OFC series, and while they had a slightly more expensive 'brother' off the same production line in the Quantum OFC, the slightly cheaper model excelled. The Quantum model for the few extra dollars had an end float bearing rather than a bush, and a stainless steel pinion gear – hence the price difference – but both superb reels.

Now we have the upgrade of the Finnor just hitting our shores, and on immediate inspection of our delivery – I find that while they have improved the spool bearing quality to ceramic hybrid, and added an end float bearing rather than the original bush – the entire component schedule remains exactly the same, including the brass pinion and stainless steel main gears.

These are the higher speed models so have a retrieve ratio of 6.2:1, hence the pinion is working seriously hard – so the question is – why haven't we had a problem?

It's not as if we aren't working them hard with heavy duty casting, wading and used fully submerged in the surf, and cranking in sharks well over 100kgs. Usually we find that our environment throws up the core defects in various models after a couple of years, but this has not been the case with these Finnors.

It does make you think, that while the logic of your observations is perfectly sound, perhaps we are not quite as smart as the designers??


Cheers from sunny Africa


Jeri

There are some online reports of pinions failing on this reel, including this site.  Also read that the stainless pinion from the  high end Quantum version can be used as a drop in replacement.  So the manufacturer believes that stainless pinions are better for  marketing and/or functional reasons.

Which means that making one of the gears brass/bronze is driven by manufacturing cost and/or intentionally downgrading the capabilities (real or perceived) of the reel to differentiate from the high end model.   It seems unlikely that choosing pinion vs main gear out of bronze was based on maximizing the performance.  Most  likely this was cost driven.

From an engineering standpoint: It is possible that the bronze alloy used is less likely to shatter at the spool axle to pinion joint.   Or that the  bronze/stainless combo will fail at about the load no matter which is bronze, and it is cheaper to replace a pinion for warranty (and consumer).  But these would probably be secondary concerns.

In summary, my vote goes for it  coming down to manufacturing costs and product positioning for two nearly identical reels, as opposed to an act of engineering brilliance. Making the pinion bronze was the cheapest way to go and still meet the specs.  

-Jurelometer

[Makule]

Stainless steel, has a tendency for what is called, "work hardening".  That is, the surface that is being worn tends to become hard due to the rubbing.  This tendency causes SS to last longer before deformation in the form of wear occurs.  Brass does not work harden the way SS does.  My recollection is that bronze does work harden too, but can become brittle.  I am not certain about this last point as my recall isn't great these days.