Cranking power observations: Senator 114 vs 114HLW

[marc77]

This evening I was taking the line off of my Senator 114 reel and before doing so, I took a simple objective measurement of it's cranking power versus the 114 HLW reel.

Here are my observations:

These two 114 and 114HLW reels both have one piece aluminum frames, steel gears, ss dogs, ss sleeves, Diawa 900H handles set on the furthest hole, aluminum spools and greased HT 100 drag washers.  Both reels are in mint condition.

The 114 was filled with 80 lbs test Momoi Hi-Catch line to 1/4" from the top of the spool.  I mounted the reel onto a solid stand that I made for the purpose of winding line onto reels.  I then set the drag at 16 lbs with a spring scale.  I then attached the end of the line to a post located directly in front of the reel.  I placed the handle in its vertical position and with the spring scale, I pulled the handle so as to turn it against the 16 lbs of drag.  I measured the amount of force needed to turn the handle about 2 inches against the drag.  It took 11 lbs of force.  I repeated this test several times and each time I got the same reading on the scale.  I turned the handle by hand against the drag several turns and I was able to do so without much difficulty.

I then mounted the 114HLW onto the same stand and wound all the line that was on the 114 onto the 114HLW.  It filled the reel to 3/8" from the top of the spool.  I set the drag to 16 lbs with the spring scale.  I tied the end of the line to a post located directly in front of the reel.  I then performed the same pull of the handle test with the spring scale as I did with the 114.  I repeated the test several times and every time, the scale measured 16 lbs of force to turn the handle against the 16 lbs of drag.  I turned the handle against the drag by hand and it was very difficult to do so.  In a fishing environment with the reel mounted on a rod and while fighting a fish, I would not be able to turn the handle at all so as to pull 16 lbs with this reel.

I then removed line in increments from the 114HLW and took periodic measurements of force required to turn the handle against 16 lbs of drag.  I kept resetting the drag to 16 lbs as I took line off the reel.  I had to remove the line down to 3/4" from the top of the spool, with the drag set at 16lbs, to be able to turn the handle with 11 lbs of force.  I had to remove about 1/2 the line to be able to get the same cranking power as the 114.

My test shows that:

1.  If you like to fight your fish by lifting the rod and reeling down to gain line (by what many would call the sportsman like method), both of these reels will get the job done.  However, the 114HLW would be favored because of its bigger drag materials, stronger internal parts and 20 percent more line capacity.

2.  If you like to fight your fish by placing the rod on the rail and cranking the fish in (a la winch method), then the 114 has the definite advantage because it allows you to turn the handle to gain line against heavier loads.


For comparison purposes, tomorrow night I will measure the force required to turn the handle against 16 lbs of drag on my Shimano Tiagra 50WLRS reel.  I will take measurements for high and low gears.  I will post the results.

This evening, I tested the cranking power of my Tiagra 50WLRS.  This reel was filled with 100 lbs test Momoi Diamond line to 1/4 inch below the top of the spool.  This reel is in excellent condition and the only modification is a T-Bar handle.

With the drag set at 16 lbs, the force required to turn the handle against the drag is as follows:

High gear - 29 lbs
Low gear - 10 lbs

Comments:
I was surprised at the amount of force needed to turn the handle against the drag in high gear.  My first 50W lever drag reel was a one speed.  I do not miss that reel at all.

I am also somewhat surprised that the Senator 114 has almost the same cranking power (11 vs. 10 lbs) as the Tiagra  50WLRS in low gear.  I would have thought that the Tiagra in low gear would have had a lot more cranking power than the 114.

[Tightlines667]

Good stuff!
It'd be cool if you could post actual effective drag numbers to correspond with the decreasing spool fullness... Keeping in mind of course that it takes much more line initially to decrease the spool diameter...this and effective drag increase exponentially as line is removed.  Larger spools should provide a distinct advantage here. 

[ZaneG]

Thanks for posting Marc.

I am not sure I understood was the reason for this measured difference because you could only load the HLW reel to 3/8" from top?

[marc77]

Zane:

I am not sure that I understand your question. 

I loaded the 114HLW to 3/8 inches from the top of the spool because that was the amount of line that was on the 114.  I wanted to get a visual on how much more line the 114HLW holds than the 114.

If I were to fill the 114HLW to 1/4 inch from the top of the spool, the measure of force required to turn the handle against 16 lbs of drag would be slightly more than the 16 lbs of force which was required at 3/8 inch down.  The more line that is on the reel, the less cranking power it has.

I am not sure that I answered your question.  If I did not, please re-phrase it and I will try to answer it.

Regards

[handi2]

Is one a 114 as stated. The lower gear ratio will change everything...

[ZaneG]

Thanks for explaining. I am definitely no expert on these reels.

I was just wondering what made the wide need more force to turn the crank at the same drag setting but maybe Handi2 just answered this.

[marc77]

I edited my initial post to show the cranking power of the Tiagra 50WLRS.

I now question the wisdom of "upgrading" my black Senators to the red high speed ones.  And then further upgrading to the high speed lever drag reels.  Only to have to further upgrade to the two speed lever drag reels  so that I could have a gear ratio that would not make me pass out from the exhaustion of fighting a fish.

[Ron Jones]

Thanks for explaining. I am definitely no expert on these reels.

I was just wondering what made the wide need more force to turn the crank at the same drag setting but maybe Handi2 just answered this.

The width of the reel is not the issue. Because both reels have the same spool diameter, line from the same level of the spool (the top, for instance) on the black side plate (114) reel will require less force to retrieve under the same drag settings due to the lower gear ratio. It will take longer to retrieve the same amount of line on the 114 for the same reason.

What would be interesting is to see how much a longer crank arm helps the fast (114H) reel. If the 114H can overcome the difference with a arm that is not so long as to be impracticable then that is the go to set up. Of course the bigger crank slows down the retrieve also. The law of energy conservation says that the longer crank will slow the 114H down to the retrieve rate of the 114 if the crank is long enough to make the torque needed to retrieve the same load equal, but I never believe a physicist. After all, I work on a nuclear submarine.
Ron

[marc77]

Ron:

Years ago, Penn and Daiwa both made long handles for their 6/0 star drag reels.  They were called "rock cod handles".  They were long and had a horizontal knob, similar to a boat trailer winch.  They increased the cranking power dramatically.  I remember some guys used them for school tuna fishing in the Northeast.  The problem is that those rock cod handles made the reels feel clumsy and awkward.

The length of the handle has a direct affect on the reel's cranking power.  To state the obvious, the longer the handle, the more cranking power the reel will have.  That is one of the reasons that I replaced all the stock Penn handles on these reels with the Daiwa 900H handles.  The other reason is that the Daiwa 900H handles have the holes cut more square and fit the gear sleeve tighter.  I stripped some gear sleeves with the Penn handles.  However, I never stripped a gear sleeve with a Diawa handle.

I try to balance the need for cranking power with the need for a comfortable and well balanced reel.  I am trying to get higher cranking power without going to a handle that will be too long.  I am trying to achieve my goal with a combination of longer handle and lower gear ratio.

[Alto Mare]

I requested longer handles from Lee about two years ago, after using a few I'm going back to stock size. They just don't feel right when fishing, I don't mind a little longer, but not by much. Longer handles will also help do a job on your gears when  lots of drag is needed.

[maxpowers]

If you could get the stock sized handles with in counter balanced it make cranking so much better.

[Ron Jones]

I use different handles on the same reel for different applications. Alan's 113H handle, based on an International I believe, is perfect for a 4:1 geared reel fishing surface iron. If I were to Yo-Yo that reel I would want a shorter handle to increase retrieve speed (and 5:1 gears or maybe even a 6/0 diameter spool!), at least until I hook up and then I might be wishing for the longer arm! If I'm fishing deep and need to crank up a couple pounds of lead and (hopefully) a large halibut, I'd like a longer arm than Alan's.

I twisted off a Diawa rock cod handle on a Ling once. First lesson, hand lining a ling cod for 400 feet sucks. Second lesson, all that length means lots of torque, ev erything needs to be tight and square with no rounded edges. Make sure your gear is ready before you do battle!

Ron

[foakes]

I'm with Sal on this one --

A bigger handle looks cool, and does help quite a bit...and I have many.  But I try not to go more than 1/2" longer than stock -- and enjoy a power handle for comfort.

However -- unless the pinion & main gears, sleeve, jack, yoke, dogs, etc. -- are also beefed up S/S -- the reel will be seriously over stressed to a point of performance failure -- particularly with our much more efficient drag stacks.  Something has to give -- and it will be a weak link in the drivetrain or the frame components.

And, one needs also to address the potential frame twist under a heavy crank -- which is only cured with a solid aluminum frame, or to a certain extent, the solid double bars -- and then I have seen many torqued or twisted stands also, if a solid frame is not used.

As with most things in our lives -- we are all different.  So one may want just the basics to fish for their target species.  Another may want to show off their reels.  Many get the satisfaction from working and upgrading their equipment.  Some just want to have the most impressive reel possible -- but they never take it fishing?

It is possible that I will change my style again some day.

But my current reel philosophy is to take a stock reel -- upgrade to wet drags, slightly larger handle, aluminum frame, maybe a S/S sleeve -- and that is more than good enough.

There is a point financially that makes sense -- and it is easy to "over-build for the neighborhood".

If I feel my equipment is going to be over-stressed at any point -- I go to the next size or two larger reel.

Your reel is only designed to go so far -- and with modest, sensible upgrades you can go further.

Best,

Fred

[marc77]

I much prefer the knobs on the stock Penn Senator 114 handles.  To get the tight fit of the Daiwa handles and the more comfortable Penn knobs, a few years ago I had a welding shop cut Diawa 400H and Penn 114 handles in half.  Then they welded the Penn top half to the Diawa bottom half.  I installed these handles on Daiwa 400H reels and use them for fishing for tilefish in deep water.  These handles do not look pretty.  However, they are very strong and comfortable.  The longer arm and large knob make it a bit easier to reel in a tilefish that is hooked as much as 1000 feet deep.

[Ron Jones]

Don't forget Newell stands Foakes. I have yet to see on fail. I've built up some pretty crazy Penns with high drag numbers and oversized cranks with Newell kits, not a worry in the world. They are also usually available for much less than an aluminum frame.

Ron