Gulf States Unite in Bid to Take Over Red Snapper Management from Feds

[Tightlines667]

https://fisheries.org/shop/54060p

Published in 2007, so a bit dated, but still a great resource.

[humboldtdan]

Much of what you say isn't considered is considered.  Models aren't perfect, but they are the best we have.  And I am not assuming anything because it is in the words you all have written.  You may not like Marine Protected Areas, but the bottom line is the science is sound regarding their benefits.  You all seem to forget that there are laws regarding MPAs in California and other places and there is the MSA for federal managed species.  There are also laws regarding pollution, etc.  and guess what, polluters say similar things i.e., we are not having the effect the fishermen are.  In most cases, commercial fishing can have a larger impact on marine resources than recreational fishing.  However, sportfishing is not without its impacts and to think otherwise is to have your head in the sand.  Most of the time, armchair biologists never read the scientific literature before they make their statements of fact.  Enough of the rant because I am sure many of you will continue to think what you want to think regardless of what scientists say.

[Dominick]

Hey guys.  This is the kind of sniping Alan is trying to avoid.  Enough said on the subject.  Okay?  Dominick

[Tightlines667]

Hey guys.  This is the kind of sniping Alan is trying to avoid.  Enough said on the subject.  Okay?  Dominick

Rodger.

It is hard to talk fisheries science..which is often of great interest to fishermen..without getting into management, and management is awfull close to politics. 

Back to fishing, and fishing gear. 

I apoligize for reviving this thread.  Guess we should keep the controversey to Delron vs. CF undergear washers and the like.

[Dr. Jekyll - AKA MeL B]

Guess we should keep the controversey to Delron vs. CF undergear washers and the like.

i wouldn't even go in there but willing to try both and see what makes me happy...

politics religion and in some other countries football(soccer)  it's a never ending debate if i may say so...

[Reel 224]

Much of what you say isn't considered is considered.  Models aren't perfect, but they are the best we have.  And I am not assuming anything because it is in the words you all have written.  You may not like Marine Protected Areas, but the bottom line is the science is sound regarding their benefits.  You all seem to forget that there are laws regarding MPAs in California and other places and there is the MSA for federal managed species.  There are also laws regarding pollution, etc.  and guess what, polluters say similar things i.e., we are not having the effect the fishermen are.  In most cases, commercial fishing can have a larger impact on marine resources than recreational fishing.  However, sportfishing is not without its impacts and to think otherwise is to have your head in the sand.  Most of the time, armchair biologists never read the scientific literature before they make their statements of fact.  Enough of the rant because I am sure many of you will continue to think what you want to think regardless of what scientists say.

That is not completely true that we will continue thinking what ever we want to think, we are just voicing our opinions with in my case 60 years of living and fishing here in the East coast, I trust that you are giving your honest opinion on your experiences as a Scientist/Biologist. I respect your view and knowledge of the subject. If we were not allowed to exchange views with one another then none of us would learn from each others experiences. Intelligent conversation and exchange of views is what makes this country great...Free speech. I personally don't view this conversation as political in that we are expressing our view on how we perceive the agencies control of fisheries as it pertains to the angler. If my view is in any way offensive to anyone it is certainly not my intention.

Joe       

[broschro]

Tight lines the data is flawed and ridiculous.

[Reel 224]

It should work if enough pressure is put on the feds.  The feds don't manage they just forbid.  Dominick

Now Now Now! 

[Tightlines667]

Tight lines the data is flawed and ridiculous.

Nearly all datasets have flaws, inconsistances, and limitations...learning to understand these, and account for them when analyzing and applying the data is the key.  Herin lies the difference between good and bad science.  Describing and understanding chaotic and complex biological systems is challenging to say the least.  Failing to try to gain a better understanding of a problem simply because it is difficult or basing your understanding solely on limited personal observations will most certainly lead to a failure to advance knowledge.  

Best available science is based on best available data, the tools and methods used to analize this information, and builds on the large body of replicated work and knowledge that has been complied by many others before.  Many confuse good science, with facts and knowledge, and this can get further mudied by best practices, and application.

The frameworks of personal experience, and cultural understanding are not inherent in the application of the scientific principles themselves.  However, the 'personal experience'..so to speak, affects ones perception, and therfor will inherently affect observation-based data collection.  True scientific methology aims to negate, or at least account for these affects.  

We know the application of the scientific method, and research works accross many fields, and it often yields surprising results and knowledge advancements.  For instance, look at all of the incredable knowledge and understanding we have developed about the human body through research focused on an issue (such as cancer).  

Now, I have gotten off topic.  

I, and most scientist, like to hear constructive criticism of their work..it is an integral and important part of the process.  If someone says the data is 'flawed'...great show me how it is flawed, and offer up a suggestion or possible means to address these shortcomings.

I guess for me, the more I learn about something, the more I come to respect and appreciate it.  This doesn't mean everything I have learned is 100% right, but utilizing the learning process does lead to understanding.  

As far as GOM Red Snapper goes the 'Feds' may not know everything, and they may or may not have the best management/implimentation strategies, or even goals for that matter..but they are charged with a difficult task, and are mandated by law to monitor and manage this stock.

This includes setting goals, timelines, utilizing best available science and knowledge to develop management strategies to enact these goals, and to monitor/evaluate /reassess, and sometimes redirect, while considering all interested, and vested parties interests.  Throughout this process they must maintain open communication, transparency, and document all that occurs.  That is one tall order, no matter what the task, and some might say they are doomed to fail at in some respect.  Any decision that is made, and actions taken will inevitabley upset some (if not most), and may include economic or other losses or sacrafices, but that doesn't mean it is not going to help to achieve the goal for which the agency was tasked with achieving.

I hope I am not 'stirring the pot' here, or offending anyone with my personal beliefs..not my intention at all.  I think these types of issues should be discussed and may best be addressed in an open public forum type format/environment.

As Lee, and Dominick said though... we want to avoid politics, and any sort of 'sniping', or personal attacks here.

This is the best forum, and group of guys I know, and we certainly want to keep it that way.

Sorry bout the long post here  Especially when I just got done saying I would stick to fishing and fishing gear.

Hope I don't go 'Poof'  

[Keta]

I hope I am not 'stirring the pot' here, or offending anyone with my personal beliefs..not my intention at all.  I think these types of issues should be discussed and may best be addressed in an open public forum type format/environment.

We need to hear from all sides, keep it up.

[broschro]

Its bs i can go out 9 times out of ten and catch red snappers. Not little ones ether fished with a local of 50+ years and he says he has never seen so many and caught his biggest fish a few weeks ago on my boat. If you go to the Florida Sportsman and look up red snapper fishery management in the North East fishing Forums you will see we have been trying to communicate with the scientist, but they can never give us a straightforward answer. this isn't hurting my livelihood but it is killing the charter fisherman as we know them here in North Florida. Noaa has had plenty of time to work this out 7yrs now but still cant get it right.this is unacceptable.

[Keta]

Hey guys.  This is the kind of sniping Alan is trying to avoid.  Enough said on the subject.  Okay?  Dominick

We are "playing nice" here and it's good to hear from both sides.  

Politics (both sides) should NEVER be involved in fish and wildlife management, unfortunately the "save the earth" crowd have control of the system now and will never voluntarily give it up.  The stripminer/clearcutters are almost as bad, see Pebble Mine.

[Reel 224]

Hey guys.  This is the kind of sniping Alan is trying to avoid.  Enough said on the subject.  Okay?  Dominick

We are "playing nice" here and it's good to hear from both sides.  

Politics (both sides) should NEVER be involved in fish and wildlife management, unfortunately the "save the earth" crowd have control of the system now and will never voluntarily give it up.  The stripminer/clearcutters are almost as bad, see Pebble Mine.

Lee: what you say is spot on when it come to any of this making seance, special interest groups are controlling a lot of decision making sadly though there aren't enough fisherman involved to counter them as need be. Everyone is trying to protect there side of the issue without listening to the real problem when it comes to hard line fishing regulations, that are causing a lot of hard feelings about who is making these decisions and why these decisions are made.

Joe     

[Keta]

The health of the resource comes first though, our grandkids need to enjoy what we have.

[Reel 224]

The health of the resource comes first though, our grandkids need to enjoy what we have.

True,true so very true.

Joe