Problem w/oscillation mechanism on Symetre 3000FL (also Sedona 2500)

[Bubba.Gritz]

Posted this issue on another board, but still haven't figured this out.  Apologies if any of this has been addressed in the archives.  Have searched, but haven't turned anything up yet. 

Have been experiencing an issue with my Symetre 3000FL -- and I think the same thing is starting to happen with my Sahara 2500: as I turn the reel handle, I experience one point in the cycle where I feel resistance, i.e., handle doesn't turn 360 degrees smoothly. It's faint/weak but noticeable, especially when reeling slack (e.g., walking the dog w/a topwater lure) -- don't feel it so much if reeling quickly. It's a small thing, but its annoying, especially from a reel that has otherwise been extremely smooth.

Have carefully taken reel apart repeatedly and have eliminated the possibility that it's a bearing or the roller clutch AR cartridge. It occurs when the oscillating slider (RD15431 -- see image excerpt from reel schematic below) is working the oscillating gear (RD15432) -- the slider reaches a point in its cycle around the gear where it generates a lot of resistance before it will complete its circuit. Have torn it all down and (re)greased repeatedly. Finally have the mechanism where the resistance can hardly be felt as you turn the handle, but it's still there. I can't find anything wrong -- no missing parts, no bent parts (looked hard at the oscillating guide, #RD15434), etc. When 2nd reel (Sahara) started manifesting the same issue, I began to wonder what's up -- anyone have a clue?

I've learned that some replace that drive gear bushing (RD5431) with a bearing (i think 7x11x3mm but not certain yet), but not convinced that's relevant to the problem. Perhaps it could make that handle circuit just a little smoother and reduce that resistance from the oscillating mechanism a bit more. Would try it if I had that bearing size handy, otherwise will have to order.

these problems with my Shimano reels did come after a week of saltwater fishing in which I "spritzed" the reels with fresh water then wiped them down. but they were also outside for the whole week in a (covered) boathouse -- so were exposed to tropical-like Florida humidity. It did occur to me that the problem might have been aggravated by high humidity and perhaps moisture build-up inside the reels. but, of course, this didn't affect any of my other reels -- and there was no obvious moisture inside the reels when I tore them down. Plus they've continued to manifest these symptoms (slight resistance in the oscillating mechanism when you slowly turn the handle 360 degrees). will keep working on it and post any progress. so far, best advice is just clean all components of the oscillating mechanism well (gear, slider, main shaft), then grease -- and I put more grease inside the oscillating slider than I normally would. Now I can hardly noticed the resistance. But I can still partially disassemble the reel and turn the oscillating mechanism manually -- and still feel that resistance at the same point in the oscillating gear's rotation. beginning to think this might just be partly the physics of this oscillating mechanism, and normally you don't feel that resistance when the mechanism is properly cleaned and lubed.

Thanks for any help or suggestions.

Joel

[johndtuttle]

This is can be a pretty subtle problem with the shimming of the pinion gear and how it interacts with the main gear. The pinion may be over/under shimmed. Or, it just can be a tolerance problem overall with the gears or block that only became noticeable after a certain amount of wear but made it out of the factory as ok originally.

The way it works when the main and pinion aren't properly shimmed into ideal tolerance when the oscillation changes direction it changes the force on the pinion/main gear interaction. They need just the right amount of play to have that go smoothly and not have any binding. Generally under shimming produces binding in this case and the pinion needs a shim or two (between the pinion and it's rear bushing/bearing) to move it forward usually or possibly removed as the case may be.

This is the sort of thing that Shimano is normally happy to send out shims to let you play with the reel yourself, or, you can send it to them to save some headache and let them do it. IF there is a tolerance problem that can't be fixed they will end up replacing the reels/parts.

All of these spinners have certain tolerance requirements (thousandths of inches) back and forth and side to side that have to be met for smooth function and not be too loose or too tight. This is beyond the tolerance the parts can reasonably be made originally and a shim or two here and there in the reel is normal all the way up to the highest end spinners.

[Bubba.Gritz]

John -- very helpful, thanks for taking the time to reply and with such specificity.  I'll tear my Symetre down again and look closely at the main and pinion gears. Perhaps I could improvise a shim with my collection of spare reel parts.  Will follow-up if I learn anything new.  // Joel

[johndtuttle]

John -- very helpful, thanks for taking the time to reply and with such specificity.  I'll tear my Symetre down again and look closely at the main and pinion gears. Perhaps I could improvise a shim with my collection of spare reel parts.  Will follow-up if I learn anything new.  // Joel

Once you open it up note there are probably some shims in there on the handle bushing/bearings that like to stick to the bearings so you don't even notice them (these are for side to side play) and ones on either end of the pinion (depending on the reel) are for forward and back play.

You also can find them under the rotor as these are sometimes used to raise it to adjust line lay just as shims are used under the spool for the same.

Now you know about all all I know about shims! 

[Bubba.Gritz]

I just tore down and reassembled my Symetre. Your analysis of the potential issue with the main and pinion gears was extremely helpful -- i watched and felt the main & pinion gear movement carefully and I think you were completely correct.  Something about the match-up between the main and pinion gear was not perfect in the way my reel was assembled.  After reviewing the schematic carefully, I noticed I didn't reinstall the drive gear bushing (#5431) correctly.  The schematic clearly shows it with the gear installed with its two "teeth" pointing away from the main gear (and into the housing of the reel opposite the handle).  Can't be that simple, can it?!  The two "teeth" keep that bushing just a "hair" (technical term!) higher and effects how the main gear mates with the pinion gear just slightly.  and I can no longer feel that "resistance" when I turn the reel handle 360 degrees.  This may be more complicated, but time will tell.  Will report back after I put a few miles on the reel.   

If this is even close to correct, it would suggest that if you were to replace that drive gear bushing with a bearing, you'd definitely need to shim it slightly to mate the main gear properly with the pinion gear. 

FWIW / joel

Joel Elliott
Hillsborough, NC

[johndtuttle]

Very glad that it gave you a little area to trouble shoot and you solved it! 

[johndtuttle]

Hey Joel,

I took a look at that thread of yours that had others with similar trouble in various models .

The reel pros at Shimano know precisely what is causing the trouble in the others though the extent of the issue is kinda hard to pin down. One man's "locking up" is frozen solid, another man's is a tiny knock.

In this case we are talking about tiny knocks and they can develop over time for the reasons discussed with a new variable: Wear.

What part of the chain is hard to identify as numerous ones as we have discussed can be the culprits. Sometimes it will be increased side to side play from wear in the main, or back and forth from the pinion. Sometimes the end of the pinion wears from the main shaft running back and forth in it as well and this can cause roughness in the oscillation etc.

You never know what people have put the reel through over the web as well. Guys that say they are a "little hard on gear" are sometimes doing things with them that are simply unbelievable. They just don't know what no reel is capable of standing up to no matter how much you spend.

Anyways, not to discount your trouble. It sounds like these other reels have some little quirk to them that shows up over time, for some guys. I agree wholly that for smaller models in freshwater with modest drag needs you don't need expensive reels. We'll keep an eye on this and help where we can  .

[handi2]

Yes the bearing is 7x11x3 to replace the right side bushing.

[Bubba.Gritz]

thanks to all for the suggestions and information. will follow-up if I learn more.  I did order bearings ( 7x11x3mm) to replace that gear bushing, so will be interesting to see if that affects anything.  // Joel