Shimano gear clearance

[DavidKa]

Hi. Just received my first shimano reel(!)
Old (but sa new) 09 Exsence model which is based on 09 Twinpower MG/07 Stella...
The reel is very smooth but the handle is clunky and rotor is a bit jumpy, compared to daiwas the lateral gear play is kind of huge.
As an old daiwa user I was a bit disappointed but found this on alanhawk.com:
"The play is built into the reel so that when you turn the handle the gears would have this clearance to move in and out and jump over these inconsistencies. If the gears are fitted tightly you'd feel points of roughness and teeth digging into one another. The more accurate the gears are manufactured the less play they will need. For example mid range and high end Shimano reels generally have more handle play because their gears are cold forged, which is a brilliant manufacturing technique to create strong gears out of a lighter and softer alloy, but it produces less accurate parts than other manufacturing methods therefore they need more play built into them to function properly. On the other hand the gears of a Saltiga are manufactured significantly more accurately than other reels, hence they need much smaller play that is so hard to notice many anglers actually think they have zero play."
Cold forged vs CNC'd gears, that makes sense. A few daiwas i've owned especially 07Luvias and 06Certate had about "zero" play in the main/pinion gear and they have a CNC'd gears.
I've been told that the most of the "pre-Xship era" shimanos have a bit more gear play then the newer Xship models... So may be I should reconsider shimming the gear and just let it be i.e. trust the manufacturer?

Clunking handle is not bothering me as much as long and healthy gear life... although shimano gears are MUCH cheaper.
Any thoughts?

[FatTuna]

A few years ago the gear play in a few of my Shimanos was driving me nuts. The cheaper Shimano spinners have significant play. Especially the baitrunner D series. Even my stradic Ci4 has it. That was a $200 reel.

After rebuilding a few dozen baitrunners and swapping the gears on some, I learned it's just how they are..... I've experimented with shimming the pinon gear to reduce play. It does work. However, it's tricky to get it right. To do it correctly, I feel it would be best to get really thin shims and stack them. The reel will feel worse if you over do it. In my opinion, the best place to put the shim is under the pinon bearing.

Let me know how it goes.

[DavidKa]

Hi. Thanks!
Probably you've meant placing a washer(s) under the bearing of the main gear, not the pinion?
The washers are # 82 on the diagram:


The question was IS - is it "healthy" to alter the factory tolerances? If most shimanos are like that, may be it should be left alone?

[johndtuttle]

You can play with the gear shims a little and sometimes a reel needs shims added with age. Depending on the reel sometimes these main gear shims on the handle side need to be added, sometimes pinion shims under the rotor etc.

But, from experience I can tell you if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[DavidKa]

But, from experience I can tell you if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Thanks John,
How can I determine if it's "broke"? About 0.3-0.5mm lateral play is reasonable?

I've asked a few people regarding Exsence reels and they told me that yea, they all have a handle play, shim it!
I shimmed my Luvias after 5 years of use and also Certate after 2-3... but this reel is barely used.

[FatTuna]

No I meant putting it under the pinon bearing. What type of play are you referring to?

Shims on the drive gear will tighten up lateral play (handling moving in and out).

Shims under the pinon bearing will tighten up vertical rotor movement and handle play.

Johndtuttle, advised me on this years ago. Thanks John. I spent many hours trying to perfect my reels. As I said, you can tighten it up a bit but it's tricky. Best would be to get super thin shims.

Too many shims on the drive gear and you are going to get roughness as the gears will be too close. The gears will wear out faster too. Not enough shims and you will get roughness as well.

The pinon can also be shimmed. Ever done a stradic FJ? There is shim under the pinon bearing. You can try adding a custom shim there. Some reels have shims on top of the pinon bearing. You can experiment with that as well.

[DavidKa]

On my Daiwas I shimmed a main gear (under the "engine plate") with washers I got from Daiwa which are 0.02 and 0.05mm.
But I've also acquired a few 0.01 mm washers from hedgehog studio store Fine tuning you know

I just never saw that amount of play on Daiwa reels, new or lightly used...

[johndtuttle]

But, from experience I can tell you if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Thanks John,
How can I determine if it's "broke"? About 0.3-0.5mm lateral play is reasonable?

I've asked a few people regarding Exsence reels and they told me that yea, they all have a handle play, shim it!
I shimmed my Luvias after 5 years of use and also Certate after 2-3... but this reel is barely used.

I had this conversation with the Penn Techs and they told me they try for 0.2-0.5mm play at all times. It if seems excessive and you have some very thin shims (0.1mm or 0.2mm) you can add one and see. But, there is some evidence that older spinning reels also need their main and pinion "marked" to return to previous wear patterns when re-assembled to be as smooth as before. This has lead to opening a "can of worms" for some (I hope you understand the metaphor ) making it very difficult to return to pre-service smoothness.

A new reel can probably do this without consequence but an older reel there might be something to it.

[DavidKa]

This has lead to opening a "can of worms" for some (I hope you understand the metaphor ).

I see
With my latest reel maintenance tryouts I found that the positioning of the PINION (tightenig of the rotor nut) is not less crucial than the centering of the main gear. At least with "real four"-pre 2010 daiwas.

[johndtuttle]

This has lead to opening a "can of worms" for some (I hope you understand the metaphor ).

I see
With my latest reel maintenance tryouts I found that the positioning of the PINION (tightenig of the rotor nut) is not less crucial than the centering of the main gear. At least with "real four"-pre 2010 daiwas.

Absolutely correct. The tolerance of the Pinion and it's Rotor Nut changes over time. You start tightening the Rotor Nut down more and it pulls the Pinion towards the Rotor changing the meshing with the Drive Gear.

You then have to shim the Pinion before the Pinion Bearing and also watch how line lay may be affected if the Rotor height changes.

Can of worms .

[Tightlines667]

This has lead to opening a "can of worms" for some (I hope you understand the metaphor ).

I see
With my latest reel maintenance tryouts I found that the positioning of the PINION (tightenig of the rotor nut) is not less crucial than the centering of the main gear. At least with "real four"-pre 2010 daiwas.

....
Can of worms .

[DavidKa]

So what's the consensus? To shim or NOT to shim?
Will less master-pinion clearance will somehow prolong their lifespan? I really don't care so much about knocking sounds...
Probably I just had too much expectations from Stella's young brother...

Oh, another a bit off topic question.
The spool have a small chip on the ceramic-like coating, a pic is HERE.
It seems that there is no contact with line when it comes off but I want to fill that dent anyway. Does JBweld will do the job? Or should I try some more flexible epoxy or... just a dab of superglue gel?

Thanks all!

[johndtuttle]

So what's the consensus? To shim or NOT to shim?
Will less master-pinion clearance will somehow prolong their lifespan? I really don't care so much about knocking sounds...
Probably I just had too much expectations from Stella's young brother...

Oh, another a bit off topic question.
The spool have a small chip on the ceramic-like coating, a pic is HERE.
It seems that there is no contact with line when it comes off but I want to fill that dent anyway. Does JBweld will do the job? Or should I try some more flexible epoxy or... just a dab of superglue gel?

Thanks all!

Stick with factory tolerance. The assembly techs know what they are doing. I would only add shims in an older reel that seemed to clearly need it.

For the chip, clear nail polish is all you need. Even if you do nothing it will not probably affect the line.

[DavidKa]

Thanks again!