avet's response to the grease issue

Started by alantani, December 22, 2008, 04:36:25 PM

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alantani

here's the link to rick ozaki's response to the question about greasing avet carbon fiber drags or not. 

http://www.bloodydecks.com/forums/avet-reels-support/104954-grease-not-grease.html

and here is a copy of the text, reprinted without permission (figured rick would not mind).  read this here if you wish, or read the same thing AND the various responses on bloodydecks.com!!!!!!!!!!!!!! alan

QuoteTo Grease or Not to Grease?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WOW! The quest for perfection. You would think something as simple as slowing down a fish hell bent on freedom over a frying pan would be easy. NOT!

Well, I have read all of your posts from Hawaii to Germany, from salmon to giant bluefin tuna, from jerky to super smooth and from grease or no grease.

The bottom line is, no matter how much someone listens, researches, reads or peers into the crystal ball, they are always going to follow the method that they feel either makes the most sense or that which makes them more confident in their own ways.

Well, here is one more post that I hope will settle down this flurry of varied self determined opinions weather to grease or not to grease.

Today, May 14th was dedicated to full-on total R&D (grease/no grease) day at Avet. Sarkis, Harry, Dave Rocchi and Ben Frazier spent the day burning a lot of gas, burning a lot of drag washers and tearing down and scrutinize a lot of reels.

They obviously needed to standardize their testing so 100 yard monofilament topshots were designated as the line of choice since they had between 100 and 110 yards for their flight path. That length would cover most topshots with spectra backing and at the same time maintain consistency of the increase in line pressure as the line diameter decreased and the spool rotation increased.

Both single and twin drag reels were tested. Single drag reels were tested at full and twin drag reels were tested at strike (Dave really wasn't up for what you called "asphalt skiing"). Line size was standardized to 40lb for single disk and 130lb for twin disk. Speed varied from 25 to 30 MPH at 75 yards depending on how close the looke lou's got. Between the V-10 Dodge truck and the Hummer, speed was not nearly as critical as breaking.

While maintaining a common stance, they used what they thought was the best drag grease available and testing was performed immediately after the line was retrieved back on the reel with a calibrated scale.

Results are as follows:

v Single drag reels (dry drags): After 1st test = 100% of original drag, 2nd test followed immediately = 105% of original drag and immediately followed by 3rd test which also yealded 105% of original drag setting.
Teardown exposed slight yellow/bluish tinting of drag plate, but very little visual wear of carbon fiber drag.

v Single drag reels (greased drags after setting drag with excessive grease wiped off): Prior to load testing, the wet drag maintained same drag pressure as the dry drag on straight short pull. 1st (high speed) tests showed an average of 6 - 8% reduction from original drag setting. 2nd tests resulted in 10 to 13% reduction from original setting and 3rd tests stayed around the same.
Teardown also exposed yellow/bluish tinting of drag plate. Also appeared that as heat built up grease would become thinner and the centrifugal force would send (oil at this point) the grease to the outer diameter of the spool. After the third test, there appeared to be very little grease left on the drag. Possibly absorbed into the drag material but not visible at this point.

v Conclusion at this point: Single drags will be fine with smaller fish that won't put the reel to the big test by pulling a lot of drag and building up a lot of heat. When the heat starts to build up, it appears as though the drag effectiveness is compromised.

v After the 3rd test, they allowed the reel to cool off for 3 minutes and retested with a short pull test. The drags came back to within approximately 5% of the original setting, and after 10 minutes of cool off, the drags came back to 100% of the original setting.

v Twin drag testing was performed with a Pro EXW50/2 loaded with 130lb mono over spectra. The Spectra was never exposed during any of the tests. All testing (both greased and non-greased) was with a drag setting of 35lbs at strike.

v First and second dry tests resulted in drag increasing to 37lbs. After the second test, those drags were getting very hot and we decided to take it apart cool it down and grease em up, wiping off any excess.

v Results from the 1st test equated to the same as the dry test showing an increase of 2 lbs of drag (37lbs).

v Results from the 2nd test showed a decrease of 3.5 lbs down to 33.5 lbs of drag immediately after the line was retrieved.

v The reel was disassembled and showed just slight discoloration of the plate and once again small amount grease built up on inside of side plate. Also there was very little sign of any grease on washers themselves.

v They figured it was getting late but had time for one more test, so the drag washers went to the sink and were soaked with water and reassembled.
Once again the drags were set at 35lbs (strike) and off went the Hummer. This was somewhat non-conclusive since the drags were still warm, but not hot and the water absorbed into the drag washers pretty quickly. As a result of the wet/no so wet drag, there was only a loss of .5lbs down to 34.5lbs of drag.

v Conclusion at this point: Twin drags with no grease stayed fairly consistent and even increased slightly when initially heated up (or worn in).
With grease applied, the drags also increased up to 37lbs but when really heated up the drags started to loose a little moving down to 33.5lbs.

Your call at this point depending what your fishing for. Granders from Hawaii to Portugal that are going to do everything possible to melt you and your drags while strapped in and strapped down using monster drag settings (35-70) or stand-up on the rail dealing with a little less drag (30 – 45) and YFTs, BFTs etc. that hopefully will settle down and not get too stupid with you.

Avet's stance at this point: They are going to hold on to their original direction of NO grease due to inconsistencies resulting from varying temperatures, having to reapply grease periodically, grease having a tendency of attracting inherent elements such as salt, carbon dust etc.

One very important factor to take into consideration is that Avet is building high quality reels for people fishing all over the world for every type of application be it extreme or simple day of enjoyment on the water type of fishing. Their thought process is to keep them simple, affordable, and strong while maintaining a high level of quality and customer satisfaction. Consistency and quality control are two of the most challenging facets of any major reel manufacturer. As the age old adage goes, "you can make everyone happy some of the time and you can make some of the people happy all of the time, but you can't make everyone happy all of the time". This is one company that I know that will keep trying their best to make everyone happy.
__________________
Any questions or comments reguarding Avet Reels please contact me rickozaki@sbcglobal.net
send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

triay85

It's good to see avet putting in te time and effort in researching an further more sharing with us!

Ron Jones

I've always been under the impression that grease increases the smoothness of the drag and eliminates start-up. In my own unscientific tests I have definitely seen those two traits in greased carbon-fiber drags and will continue to use them exclusively. I do believe Avet has it right though, it is much easier to add grease than to remove grease.
Ron
Ronald Jones
To those who have gone to sea and returned and to those who have gone to sea and will never return
"

saltydog

I seriously doubt that grease on drag washers is going to cause the salting up of a reel, if so the entire inside of the reel should be salted up if not cleaned properly. A bucket of water is way off but hey engineers are what said the Titanic was unsinkable but look where that got them.
I would rather grease my drags than leave them dry, at least they will repel water better and startup is very noticeable without Cal's on them. Plus I seriously doubt you are gonna notice 3 pounds of drag on a 200 yard run.
Remember...."The soldier above all other people prays for peace, for he
must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war!" Douglas
MacArthur

Bunnlevel Sharker

Especially with an 8+ shark, 150lb+ tuna or ray, or any other big fish
Grayson Lanier

AllenW

While 150 pound Tuna's are a bit rare here in MN, I do find between the carbon fiber drag washers and the grease, I don't have that initial higher resistance when the drag is first used.

While it may be only a 10-20# fish tugging on the line, when your using 10-12# test and have a 150 foot of line out, the drag needs to work with out hanging up at first, that first hook set puts a lot of stress on light lines and a dragging set of washers may lose that fish.

I don't use the Avet reel, so I don't know much about them, but it matters on my Penn GT and Diawa sealine line counter reels.

Al

johndtuttle

#6
Balderdash.

Avet is saying a perfectly maintained reel with a dry carbon fiber drag works better at the most extreme settings. Settings (in the case of the single drag reel) that would destroy the reel and would not be fish-able for long due to handle binding.

The falloff in drag performance of a single drag reel between dry and wet carbon fiber drags at usable drag settings (meaning settings that do not destroy the pinion bearing and where the reels are actually designed to be fished) is insignificant. This is where the test of the single drag reel should have been done to assess if there was any fall off in performance worth worrying about. I doubt very seriously that it would be noticeable as even the extreme setting changes are no deal breaker.

A well prepped with grease Avet is going to be a more reliable reel for more people than a dry reel over time.

Obviously a dry Avet can be made to work with meticulous fresh water flushes. I simply hold the belief that most guys do not take good enough care of their reels to make any dry reel superior over time. Eventually salt is gonna get in there and be left in there. They are going to be better off with even a one time application of drag grease and other preventative lubing. You are far better off with salt suspended in grease than directly eating your aluminum frame.

It may be simply confirmation bias and those that take good care of their reels are inclined to lube them...but every badly corroded reel I have ever seen was dry of grease inside.

I'm gonna go with Accurate, Daiwa, Okuma, Penn and Shimano on this one. I think we can assume that they have decided their average customer is best served by greased drags and reels for good reason and most of them also take the time at the factory now to more properly lube the insides of their reels to protect them from saltwater.

I am not saying Avet is wrong per se...A perfectly clean and dry Avet will perform very well. I am saying they are wrong for the average guy over the lifetime of the reel that eventually has some degree of saltwater intrusion. A greased drag and reel will be less likely to let him down, better protect his investment and any difference in performance stopping Hummers is immaterial.

Bullshipper

I do not have a problem using my 50W 2 speeds on 150-250 lb tuna. Smooth, taking line fast. But I have only caught labout 25 of these, spread out over 5 reels.

But my Jx Raptor 2 sp are not smooth at all when a smaller 8-30 lb yellowtail is pulling out slower. I have caught over a 100 of these this season on just one reel, and it was NIB this year. It works, but it is not near as smooth as my Shimanos, Penns, Diawas, or large avets.

Granders and large tuna are closer to pulling line a fast speeds with a hummer, but we really don't get many opportunities to cacth these huge fish very often, even living in Mexico.

So the Raptor is gonna get some grease on her washers, and I have been a hold out on my others for years.

GClev

#8
Were any tested after a thorough dunking?  Does grease help or hurt a reel that's been submerged to 100ft?

We come full circle.  Reels shrink.  

Were Avet's tests only on dry ground?  dry reels?  with the pickup?

Soaking a reel at home in the desert isn't a problem.  It's not 100 ft deep here in the sink.  Rigging it to the pickup/tuna here in the driveway takes 5 people.  One to hold the rod, one to drive the truck, and three to laugh until they bust.

steelfish

thanks for sharing this Alan to the average guys that dont fish for granders and giant tunas..
The Baja Guy

Cor

#10
Horses for courses!  
When fishing for Yellowtail from shore I want a drag I can lock solid and the funny thing is that I never understood all the fuss about drags.    I now do....LOL, but that came about mainly after I started fishing more and more from boats, in deeper water, often stronger fish and lighter tackle.
If you allow a Yellowtail the leeway to turn his head, you are hardly able to stop him again before he is in some underwater structure,  which he will instinctively head for.   Sometimes it takes 2 seconds for the fish to nail you like that.

Smoothdrag also sell (or used to sell) "smoothies"  which are drag washers made from a different smooth fibre, and used 100% dry.   No grease is allowed near the drag stack.

My experience with these are that they are more sensitive to adjust and give a far greater drag range from no drag to nearly completely locked.   In the lighter settings they are very smooth as well but at tight settings they start to become snatchy.   So for shore applications I still have a preference for these older type of drag washers as the snatchyness is not important.    I have also experimented with dry carbontex and found that satisfactory as well.

I never tested them other then in use.
Cornelis

SNAPS

Walked in to my local BnT a customer came in with a daiwa Saltist lever drag, reel got wet, he was unable to finish his trip, Tom the owner says whaddya think?  I said water in the drags., nooo that wouldnt do it, i opened it right there on the counter, poured out about a teaspoon of water. Told him if the drag was
Greased he coulda finished his day trip then open it for service.

ez2cdave

Quote from: GClev on June 17, 2016, 03:41:23 PMIn the same time frame, '70s and early '80s, fishing on a San Diego LR boat in winter, a medium YFT (160-275#) hooked on an International 50 filled with 80# or 100# Izor mono, the reel could be emptied quickly on the initial run.  When the 50 went empty, the whole rig was snapped onto to a big orange buoy and clipped onto a no drag 80 or 80W filled with 200# dacron.  With a sinking feeling and eight or ten wraps left on the very bottom of the spool, you crammed the drag all the way forward and pitched your rod and reel into the drink.  

I just got a "mental image" of Daron clipping a buoy on and chucking his EVEROL 20/0 overboard . . . I'm pretty sure his facial expression would not be very "pretty" . . . LOL !



Tight Lines !

ez2cdave

I have been doing some "light reading" online about AVET reels and drag grease ( including references in this thread . . .

I have attached THREE files below, in PDF format, for easy download . . . ENJOY !

Tight Lines !

MarkT

#14
I was at the Longfin's customer appreciation sale yesterday in Orange, CA. I had Daiwa take a look at my Saltiga 40ld2 that loses freespool as the drag goes up.  They added a couple of shims to the spool shaft to take up the slack and that solved it. I can now get 17+# of drag with great freespool. They also regreased the drag washer while they were at it... it's a woven carbon fiber like Avet and pretty much everyone else. I grease the washers in my Avets whenever I service them. If it's good enough for Daiwa, Shimano, Okuma, Penn and everyone other than Avet then it's good enough for me! I don't buy Avets reasons for not greasing them. Max drag is not an issue for me but smoothness and maintenance are. You can't ratchet up the drag in non-Raptor Avets to have max drag become relevant anyway. Maybe if they used thrust washers or bigger/better pinion bearings you could use higher drag but you can't if you want the pinion bearing to survive.

Scott (sundaytrucka) was at the Longfin servicing Okuma again too.
When I was your age Pluto was a planet!