Drag Settings and Bellville Configurations

TheReelShop · February 12, 2016, 04:33:19 AM

Two questions which can be stupid/dumb maybe not idk lol.

this can apply to any reel that has different sizes under the same series.

First question, does 25 lbs of drag at strike (just using as a reference it really can be any number) on a 30/50/80 (same series reel) define all three to be equally producing true 25lbs of drag at strike when relating to each other? Or does each reel have its "own version" of 25lbs? I bring this up because 25 lbs of drag on a 30 size spool is not the same as 25lbs to turn a 50 or 80 size spool. Can those 25lbs of drag from the 30 size reel be lower if theoretically you could apply it to an 80 size spool? Am I close not close or just far fetched?

Second question, bellville spring configurations. With most of the reels, its all about playing around with the orientation to get the desired drag curve/lbs as I have experienced through my servicing of reels and with the help of you guys, Alan and John. Now, I have also read how different orientations can cause more pressure on the reel than other bellville configurations. Now my question, a stock configuration producing a specific amount of drag lbs, and say an orientation that's more aggressive/stiffer producing the same drag lbs, why would this be detrimental to the reel with the stiffer bellville set up if both are producing the same drag #'s. I can only see it detrimental if surpassing the limits. So in other words if a reel is made to 40/50lbs at strike or whatever the case, re configuring to increase those numbers is already detrimental. but a reconfigured bellville setup producing the recommended drag should not be a problem and really not needed except for when spacing is an issue say like with an old or used up reel where the lateral wear is the cause.

as always thanks for any feedback..

Tightlines667 · February 12, 2016, 04:44:23 AM

You bring up an interesting set of questions. With regards to the first...

I would say.. yes and no. The at 25 lbs on a small spool is the same as that on a larger spool at that instant. However, the spikes from start/stop/change in speed as well as the changes associated with changing spool diameter (as line is payed off), may vary. A full large spool can typically loose more line before the diameter decreases considerably, and although it's heavier and will have more momentum.. the fulcrum point is further from center as well. I believe that this will typically give you a more consistent running drag, then a smaller spooled reel producing the same drag.

With regards to the second question. You are correct in stating that a steeper drag curve at a given setting still within the reel's max drag will not result in undue forces on components. However, changing the spacing can actually change what that number is (typically when the reel looses freespool). Also, too steep of a curve may give you a max setting past the reel'shimmed design specs. Also, the risk of the drag numbers being too great as the spool diameter decreases.. will also increase. If you push the gear to the limit, you may be playing with fire, since you loose the safety margin, and drag spikes increase as spool diameter decreases.

PacRat · February 12, 2016, 03:55:45 PM

We need a reel dyno. I wonder if major manufacturers have such a thing? To get empirical numbers for these questions one would need something more complex than a spring scale.

When tensioning cable we use two types of tension instruments. One is in-line and acts just like a spring scale but with a dial and the other instrument measures deflection to calibrate tension. I haven't used these in decades so I don't recall the proper name but it has three points of contact on a tight cable. The point in the middle applies pressure and measures the deflection to give an accurate tension.

Mike

TheReelShop · February 12, 2016, 04:51:54 PM

makes sense.. It's good to know these things because it helps to understand the outcomes of a completed reel when taking such actions to achieve the desired results.

SoCalAngler · February 12, 2016, 06:44:28 PM

In my mind 25 lbs at strike is 25 lbs no matter which reel it is on. Remember at a kid, which weigh's more a pound of lead or a pound of feathers?

The size difference in the reels in your example 30/50/80 has more to do with the amount of line you can get onto the reel and the reels design for heavier line. With that said it means the 50 will be bigger in overall size than the 30, maybe different gearing, longer handle and such for more cranking power for the heavier line. Same with the 80 being larger then the 50.

As far as the drag increase as the spool gets smaller that is correct. But, on a 30 sized reel you most likely will fish a lighter test than on the 50 and again on the 80. The 25 lbs at strike most likely ramp up the same on all reels as the spool diameter decreases due to the use of heavier line on the larger reels and with the spools arbor also being thicker on the bigger reels.

For the second question on the ramp up with changing the bellevile washers really is not a factor in a star drag reel. You set the amount of drag you want on the reel and fish it. Now on a lever drag this is where you can loose freespool with playing around with the config. Also the ramp up of moving the lever up to strike may be to aggressive making lines break or of needed to add more drag than the strike setting and you push past the strike setting there can and most likely get a big jump in in the drag pressure, Again this could cause the line to break

Tiddlerbasher · February 12, 2016, 09:35:51 PM

How has the reel manufacturer defined the drag? - Fully spooled or empty (they rarely say - 10lb fully spooled can be 20lb empty). Measure what you've got how you want, as long as you check your drag against the line/rod, your using, does it make a difference?

handi2 · February 13, 2016, 12:20:17 AM

Sometimes things just get overthought.

David Hall · February 13, 2016, 12:42:17 AM

I havent been fishing everywhere, but I have never seen anyone set the drag on a reel during a fishing trip by using a scale or any other device other than by hand and this is how I do it also.
When I set my drag for salmon trolling I set it real low by hand at an estimated 2-4lbs pressure, the same reel for Albacore will set at or around an estimated 10lbs. For Blue Fin 15lbs. How do I know what they are set at, precisely I do not know but I know my gear and what feels right to me.
I check various settings of my star or preset knob at home with a scale but who uses a scale on the water? Show of hands?

handi2 · February 13, 2016, 01:00:41 AM

On our large trolling reels for Marlin and Tuna the drags are always set using a spring scale right before every trip.

PacRat · February 13, 2016, 01:14:40 AM

We all set our drags by hand on the water but as our equipment improves we will be finding (or the fish will anyways) the new weak links in our rigs. I for one would be very interested to know that if I set my drag at 14 lbs. on my new Cortez plated 501; what the actual drag will be with 60% of the line played out...just out of curiosity. Then, armed with these numbers we might make the decision not to exceed 10 lbs. because we will be risking breaking something as the spool empties and drag numbers ramp up. I'm one of those guys who fishes with a heavy drag so I can boat the fish and get back into the bite. Optimum drag numbers would be very useful and would at least be a good starting point to shoot for and then adjust under real life conditions.

I SCUBA dive and I'm old-school. I've always trusted the good old tables and shunned computers. I had a buddy tell me that when you travel to destinations or your opportunities are far and few between that a dive computer will dramatically extend your bottom times...guess who uses a computer now? I still back-up my dive plan with a table profile incase the computer fails. I've gone through my log books and can see that the computer keeps us down longer.

I know I got off track there but it would be good to know real numbers at each end of the spool. I might just start logging this data when I re-spool my reels.

Mike

SoCalAngler · February 13, 2016, 01:48:04 AM

Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on February 12, 2016, 09:35:51 PM
How has the reel manufacturer defined the drag? - Fully spooled or empty (they rarely say - 10lb fully spooled can be 20lb empty). Measure what you've got how you want, as long as you check your drag against the line/rod, your using, does it make a difference?

From the manufactures I have talked to the max drag and inches per crank are always measured on a full spool.

SoCalAngler · February 13, 2016, 01:59:38 AM

I have found when measuring a reels drag by hand in most cases I will be off by a great deal when I put a scale to my measurements. Well with lighter lines not so much.

A strait pull off the reel will in most cases will be different than when the drag is measured with the line going through the rods guides.

Don't take my word for it, set your drags by hand going off the reel and then measure then with a scale with the line going through the rods guides when the rod is loaded up. I bet you will find when you get over 30 lb test your drag will be off more than you thought.

FatTuna · February 13, 2016, 02:43:10 AM

I agree that 25lbs is 25lbs. However, I also think that 25lbs on a larger reel would be a lot smoother.

I've noticed that the closer you are to approaching your max drag, the jerkier the drag will become. You are also putting more wear on the reel and increasing the potential for failure. With a larger reel, there is always more drag there if you need it. With a smaller reel, you can scale down the line to get a ton of line but you lose cranking power. I think that it makes more sense to go smaller if you are going to be fishing standup because of the weight factor. You can compensate with high quality braid. If you are fishing on a boat with a chair or swivel rod holders might as well go larger. I try to scale my tackle for the biggest fish that I am likely to ever encounter.

As far as the drag increasing as the spool diameter decreases, I would think that it would be proportional to the size of the spool relative to the diameter of the line being used. As you approach max drag, the smoothness of the drag would decrease.

alantani · February 13, 2016, 03:24:26 AM

do you mean 25 pounds or 25% of line weight?

day0ne · February 13, 2016, 05:43:41 AM

I agree with SoCalAngler. I've never seen anybody that could accurately set a drag by hand. A scale is the only way to go, especially with fast running fish. I will say that I've never seen more than a pound or so difference between straight off the reel and through the guides. I believe that most that set by hand, set the drag light.