Problem With Penn International 975CS

[KarpsnKatz]

I'm having a problem with an International 975CS. The problem is that the spool has started to slip occasionally when reeling under tension, as well as the handle not disengaging on a cast. This allows the handle to spin during the cast. It also has begun to over run when I spin the handle and suddenly stop it. However, I understand that this is not uncommon with the Internationals. But I'd like it to stop. A little history on the reel: It was an auction site purchase, and admittedly I was pretty much duped, as the reel was cosmetically OK, but a bit of a train wreck mechanically. There were parts that were missing, as well as parts that didn't belong, as well as being generally dirty. I got a hold of the schematic, and all the foreign parts were tossed(these were mainly weird washers on top of the drag stack), and any missing parts were replaced. The only worn parts seemed to be the trip ratchet and drag washers. After a complete breakdown and cleaning, the reel seemed to functioning as it should, until gradually the problem with the spool slipping, and the handle not disengaging crept in. I have taken it apart, and compared it with the schematic several times, and am 100% confident that all the parts are correct and in their proper place. I have disassembled and reassembled with a lot of grease, and have also done so with little grease, and have the same result. The only thing I have noticed was a little flat spot on the little nub on the shift arm. Not sure if that would cause this. So, I'm just wondering if anyone can offer any advice as to what's going wrong here, or clue me in to something I may be overlooking? Or would I be better off sending it to Penn for a complete overhaul? Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. I'd hate to give up on this one, as when it works properly, it's a cannon of a caster.

[Brewcrafter]

Hmmm, it sounds like when you depress the free spool button that the pinion is not fully disengaged from the spool.  If you pop the sideplate off with the two knurled thumbscrews and cycle the reel through the sequence several times, can you see the pinion fully pulling back into the plate?  Also if the handle is spinning backwards at any time, that is a sign of something amiss with the AR clutch bearing (and those can be finicky with too little lube/too much lube/contamination with corrosion/it's the wrong moon phase...   
You're right, it's a bomber of casting reel especially considering when it was produced.  Love mine.  With the condition you describe it being in when you got it; that can make things tough.  Don't give up on it yet! - john

[KarpsnKatz]

Thanks for the reply. I will definately check the pinion as you have described, and report back. The problem with the handle isn't with spinning backwards, but rather forwards on a cast, kind of like on old knuckle buster. If the pinion isn't functioning properly, what could be causing that? Sounds like it could be a problem with the jack, perhaps? The more I think about it, I remember I did replace the springs as well, and possibly the pinion. I will have to look through my parts box and see if I have a used pinion gear floating around in there. I pretty much refuse to give up on it. At the end of the day it really is a nice reel, and does have a smoothness that my other Internationals can't quite compare to.

[Maxed Out]

 Spool slipping ?? Are you sure it's not the line slipping on the spool arbor?

[KarpsnKatz]

Spool slipping ?? Are you sure it's not the line slipping on the spool arbor?

Yes. By slipping, I mean that the handle is disengaging with the spool when reeling line in. When I turn the handle, the spool doesn't turn. But it doesn't spin backwards, so the anti reverse is functioning as it should.

[jurelometer]

Well, if the problem is not the handle turning backward, and the reel is not all grindy when this is happening, I think that it is unlikely to be clutch bearing or pinion related.

When not in freespool, the spool to the handle is a continuous mechanical  connection, with the exception of the drag stack. If the something was failing mechanically, you would feel the grinding and see the marks on the  gear teeth or pinion to spool junction.  The turning parts are not able to temporarily and smoothly disconnect.

If the drag was slipping, well that is what the drag is supposed to do.  A sticky/uneven drag be apparent when pulling line and not just winding.

That leaves  line slipping on the spool, which happens mostly with PE braid, and it is fairly common to not consider this as a possible root cause.  Put a temporary mark on the spool and on the line next to each other, crank up the drag and pull hard.  If the marks  lose alignment, you have a slipping line fill in the spool.


I would suspect that the handle spinning forward on the cast is a separate problem. If the handle spins forward during  the cast, then it should be permanently stuck in freespool, since turning the handle is what  turns the ratchet that disengages freespool.

If turning the handle eventually causes the reel to kick into gear , something has to be sticky in the shift arm mechanism. You can pull out the gears and yoke, and operate the whole  mechanism to see what is going on here.  Maybe a 975 expert can jump in, but don't forget the less obvious stuff like a screw holding a rotating or sliding part being a smidgen too tight, or the sliding surface on the inner sideplate being worn, or the slot in the trip arm being worn a bit, etc.

I guess that it is possible that both problems are tied together because the reel is hovering between freespool and engaged due to a sticky shift arm, but this would be doing some violence to the spool to pinion junction, which should be quite visible.

Hope this helps, and let us know what you find!

-J

[JasonGotaProblem]

I'm gonna ask a question that may make me sound really dumb. Is the handle spinning forward in freespool when the reel is sitting still, or only during a cast? Do you have an aftermarket handle on it? Or just a handle that is not counterbalanced? If so it'll swing forward on a cast because of the unbalanced weight. Is that possibly what's happening?

[jurelometer]

I'm gonna ask a question that may make me sound really dumb. Is the handle spinning forward in freespool when the reel is sitting still, or only during a cast? Do you have an aftermarket handle on it? Or just a handle that is not counterbalanced? If so it'll swing forward on a cast because of the unbalanced weight. Is that possibly what's happening?

No such thing as a dumb question.  Now sometimes the answers...

I had the same question on identifying the specific symptom.

This reel has a trip lever (I think Penn identifies this part as the shift arm) that puts the reel ino gear when the handle is turned forward.  So if the handle turns forward during the cast causing the reel to kick into gear, you are on the right track and listed a potential cause.  But if the handle turns more than a few degrees while the reel stays in freespool (casting or just sitting there), then something is wrong with the trip mechanism.

-J

[Maxed Out]

 Could be wrong eccentric, or maybe jack tabs need to be bent out a bit more. Also make sure you have the correct screws for your yoke. Fully threaded screws will make shifting to Freespool much tougher as the yoke slides down those screws.

[KarpsnKatz]

Well, if the problem is not the handle turning backward, and the reel is not all grindy when this is happening, I think that it is unlikely to be clutch bearing or pinion related.

When not in freespool, the spool to the handle is a continuous mechanical  connection, with the exception of the drag stack. If the something was failing mechanically, you would feel the grinding and see the marks on the  gear teeth or pinion to spool junction.  The turning parts are not able to temporarily and smoothly disconnect.

If the drag was slipping, well that is what the drag is supposed to do.  A sticky/uneven drag be apparent when pulling line and not just winding.

That leaves  line slipping on the spool, which happens mostly with PE braid, and it is fairly common to not consider this as a possible root cause.  Put a temporary mark on the spool and on the line next to each other, crank up the drag and pull hard.  If the marks  lose alignment, you have a slipping line fill in the spool.


I would suspect that the handle spinning forward on the cast is a separate problem. If the handle spins forward during  the cast, then it should be permanently stuck in freespool, since turning the handle is what  turns the ratchet that disengages freespool.

If turning the handle eventually causes the reel to kick into gear , something has to be sticky in the shift arm mechanism. You can pull out the gears and yoke, and operate the whole  mechanism to see what is going on here.  Maybe a 975 expert can jump in, but don't forget the less obvious stuff like a screw holding a rotating or sliding part being a smidgen too tight, or the sliding surface on the inner sideplate being worn, or the slot in the trip arm being worn a bit, etc.

I guess that it is possible that both problems are tied together because the reel is hovering between freespool and engaged due to a sticky shift arm, but this would be doing some violence to the spool to pinion junction, which should be quite visible.

Hope this helps, and let us know what you find!

-J

Those are good ideas. I'll try to answer them point by point to try and paint an accurate picture of what's happening.

The reel doesn't sound or feel grindy at all. Smooth as silk. The teeth on the main gear and the pinion are in good condition. There are no worn or broken teeth.

I am positive the line isn't slipping on the spool. The reel is lined with 20LB Ande clear mono with a 50LB top shot. I'm one of the holdouts who doesn't use braid. What is actually happening, is when reeling in the weight, or reeling in a fish, the handle occasionally feels like it actually disengages. In other words, I'm cranking the handle, but the spool isn't retrieving any line. I will say this, if it offers any clues, when I push/pull the handle in and out, it does feel like it has an inordinate amount of play back and forth.

The handle spinning forward occurs occasionally when making a cast. The trip ratchet was one of parts I replaced when I first acquired the reel. The free spool button wouldn't disengage, would only partially disengage when the handle was turned. The trip ratchet appeared worn, and the new one solved that problem. The free spool button works flawlessly now, and has never even popped up when putting muscle behind a cast.

It's interesting that you brought up the shift arm, as I'm feeling this may at least be part of the problem. There is a post on the end of the shift arm that engages the trip ratchet when the free spool button is depressed. On examination, it looks like the side of the post that engages with the trip ratchet is worn at a 45 degree angle. Perhaps this could be causing problems. If I have a few minutes this weekend, I'll disassemble the reel and post up some pics of the internals. Maybe something can be noticed that I'm overlooking.

[KarpsnKatz]

I'm gonna ask a question that may make me sound really dumb. Is the handle spinning forward in freespool when the reel is sitting still, or only during a cast? Do you have an aftermarket handle on it? Or just a handle that is not counterbalanced? If so it'll swing forward on a cast because of the unbalanced weight. Is that possibly what's happening?

Not dumb at all. I appreciate any ideas or opinions that could help solve the problem. To answer your question, the handle is the original factory handle.

[KarpsnKatz]

Could be wrong eccentric, or maybe jack tabs need to be bent out a bit more. Also make sure you have the correct screws for your yoke. Fully threaded screws will make shifting to Freespool much tougher as the yoke slides down those screws.

Thats certainly a possibility. I'll have to give the jack a closer look.