Wrapping my rod

[cbar45]

Nice work Joe!  The dragon scales look great to me.  Chad thanks for the informative responses.  I have been struggling a bit with trying to decide on the types of decrative and end cap trim wraps to stick to when building fully rollered, 80 and 130 class e-glass rods.  What I am gleaming from online resources in general is that the final strength of the rod is of paramount importance, and it seems most guys specializing in the heavier rod classes recommend using all D size threads, or maybe A decorative and under wraps, with D sized over wraps.  Also, if possible stick to dark NCP and metallic threads and don't apply any undercoat of finish (not even colorpreserver).  The idea is that applying the first coat of heavy build to all thread work at once, will form a more cohesive/stronger single bond between all threads, guides, and the blank.  This seems reasonable, and would certainly save on time, but on the other hand if closed butt wraps, tiger wraps, fades, single thread inlays, or A size thread is used on bottom wraps it seems like a base coat of light build and/or colorpreserver would be in order (and pretty much required when using translucent thread over a dark blank).  Also, a thin coat seems like it would help with bubble release especially with metalics.  Shouldn't more layers/coats of epoxy make the rod stronger?  Guess I am a bit confused as to how best to proceed.  I had intended to wrap everything in D size with double underguide wraps, treat with color preserver, and double overwrap the guides and apply 2 coats, of heavy build epoxy when all wrapping is done.  If I decide to use tiger wraps, should I finish all of my base wraps, treat with color preserver, then a single coat of low build epoxy, before mounting guides, finishing overwraps, and then finally 1 to 2 coats of heavy build.

Sorry to thread jack Joe.  Keep up the good work.  Nice to know I am not the only one just learning to play this custom rod building game.

John

Hi John,

Decorative wraps look best done with size "A", but for someone just starting out size "D" is fine. For the guides, a single under-wrap of "A" (or "D"), and a double over-wrap of size "D" works great. There is no need to do a double under-wrap--it only adds unnecessary weight and height. It is, however, possible to do a double over-wrap of "A", which gives a very clean look. Strength-wise, the average guide will be damaged before size "A" thread fails, i.e. its frame will bend and the epoxy will crack before the wrap gives way. In fact, size "A" thread exerts more force on the guide foot than "D", due to its higher turns-per-inch ratio. The reason thicker size "D" thread is preferred for over-wraps is not because of its breaking strength, but rather because size "D" is more abrasion-resistant than "A". This hearkens back to the days when rod finish was quite thin (varnish), and a triple wrap of "D" thread increased the durability--especially on rail-rods or long-range rods that saw very heavy use. With today's thicker epoxy finishes, a double over-wrap is all that is needed. You may wish to do a few test wraps with different threads and see what is comfortable for you. My habit is to use "D" on the over-wraps for the types of rods you mentioned, I also find "D" to be easier to wrap on guides where the foot has more of an angular shape--even when prepped. Am-Tack's Virtus Heavy is a good example of this.

Regarding Epoxy Finish:
Thicker coats do not make the wrap stronger, although they do offer a bit more abrasion resistance. Rather, the thread over the guide foot is where most of the holding strength comes from. It is important to remember that epoxy finish is foremost a coating that protects; not an adhesive that bonds things together, (though it has some adhesion qualities). Thus it should not matter strength-wise if the entire wrap is finished in a single thick coat--or two thin coats for the under-wrap--allowed to cure--then the guides wrapped followed by 2-3 more coats of finish over their feet. I challenge any builder who thinks otherwise to pour 12 coats of finish into their epoxy cup, at the rate of one coat a month, and at the end of the year pop out the mold and proceed to somehow sheer or separate the coats from one another. If you think about it, most rod blanks have a finish of some sort applied on them at the factory, yet the epoxy finish used on our wraps still adheres to the blank quite well. So it is reasonable to expect it to adhere to successive coats just as well--The key is to make sure the surface is clean and free of contaminants before, during, and after applying epoxy. I'm not suggesting you wipe down your wraps with alcohol in between coats, (that can exacerbate things and should never be done unless absolutely necessary), but taking steps to keep your hands and work area clean while you wrap and apply finish goes a long way. You may also want to carefully examine your razors, scissors, and packing tools--these sometimes come with a drop of oil on them from the factory that can wreak havoc if it gets on your wraps.

As far as additional coats, epoxy is similar to paint in that it has a time window during which a successive coat cures together with the coat that was previously laid. This is usually within the first 48 hours of the initial coat, although some finishes can take more (or less) time. I'm not saying additional coats must always be applied within this time frame (they don't), but in my mind if you are looking for the absolute optimal time to re-coat, then that would be it--so long as the first coat has hardened sufficiently such that your brush won't stick. As mentioned before, coating the under-wrap prior to the over-wrap makes for an easier time if you will be doing intricate work on the over-wrap. I also like the appearance it gives versus a single thick coat over both, although the latter is certainly fine to do. The thin coat I mentioned for Joe's metallic dragon-scale is in reference to the initial first coat that makes trapped air bubbles within the metallic easier to release; After that he can build up the wrap with one (or more) successive coats that are a bit thicker than the initial coat.

Regarding Color-Preserver:
I'm sure in your research you've run across a few builders who have very strong-held opinions on the issue. If you wish to use color-preserver, my advice would be to observe and listen to the builders who use it successfully, rather than the ones who seem to only list their experience with (what they perceive as) its pitfalls. Personally, I've only had one or two issues with CP, both of which were very likely my fault, (too thin of a flood coat combined with loose packing). CP is a tool--that when used properly--does as its name describes. Are there instances where it is better NOT to use CP?--Yes. Can you use CP on under-wraps for an 80lb rod?--Yes. I find that each problem (or success) when using CP needs to be taken on an individual-case basis, as there is just too much variables going on from builder-to-builder. My own process applying CP is nothing special, simply an initial flood coat followed by two more wet coats--6-8 hours between coats, 24 hours between the last coast and the first application of epoxy. I use CP on almost all decorative wraps, but do not use it on guide wraps for rods of 80lb class and up, because for me aesthetics on these rods takes a backseat to ultimate strength--however slight that gain might be. In contrast, there are builders who will not hesitate to use CP on the guide wraps for such a rod, and they do so quite successfully I might add. They are confident in their work, and feel the slight difference in epoxy-bond strength does not come into play during normal use--an opinion I respect.

However, you do not need to limit yourself to CP when it comes to keeping accurate thread colors. Perhaps you might try using thread that is a shade or two lighter than what you want, such that it darkens with epoxy to your desired color. Another method is to use your thread of choice, but paint the blank white in the area where the guide wrap will be. Finally, you can experiment with a base wrap of metallic silver (or other light metallic color). Regular thread wrapped over such a base, and without the use of color preserver, tends to take on a candy-apple look that can be quite beautiful.

Chad

[anglingarchitect]

I made one Rod and a Gaff and decided it wasn't for me. Like most things it's way more difficult than experts make it look.

You appear to have what it takes Joe, more ambitious and a damn fine job.

Mark

[Reel 224]

I made one Rod and a Gaff and decided it wasn't for me. Like most things it's way more difficult than experts make it look.

You appear to have what it takes Joe, more ambitious and a damn fine job.

Mark

Mark: I get frustrated at times myself but it's usually when I'm tired and push myself. Like tonight! I had to cut an entire wrap off and Ill redo it tomorrow, when I'm alert 

Joe

[Tightlines667]

Chad,
Wow.. thanks for that post!  That is exactly the information I was after.  It gets a bit confusing learning from so many different people that have different styles, beliefs, and build types focuses.  I have tried to remember the key bits that are constant throughout.  Following a recipe is one thing, but learning how the ingredients work together, and the logic behind them, can give you the road map to approach any number of build types.  Guess I need to get some 'hands on' experience and develop the requisite skills.  This is one of those 'crafts, that requires a mix of logic, precision, and creativity.  I'm looking forward to the learning process.

John

[cbar45]

I like your analogy of following a recipe, versus throwing a dish together based on knowledge of the individual ingredients.
Practicing a new technique on a scrap blank is a great way of getting to know your "ingredients"; Mistakes made on scrap blanks are less daunting--which bolsters creativity.

Noticed I didn't answer your question about color preserver on tiger-wraps. My preference leans toward the no-CP look since a lot of the Tiger's I do have some sort of metallic in the base wrap--using CP would dull that shine. Over time you will develop a "feel" as to what color combinations might look good without CP. This is something I still struggle with, as the corner filled with tiger-wrapped broken blanks and pool cues testifies..

Chad

[Reel 224]

John: The most important thing fore me was practice and you tube and then Chad suggesting those books to me. You made reference to recipe, I would add to that, that you have to make that your own by finding different variations of that recipe to suet your taste. I'm just in the beginning stages of rod building like you, but I know I want to find my own style and create something different, as well as reel work!

Joe   

[Reel 224]

Here are two pictures of the border Ive done so for, there is one coat of finish.

Joe

[RiverAngler]

Joe, that looks great! Please tell me what books you and Chad are talking about. It would be an immense help.

[cbar45]

RiverAngler, Here is the thread where we discussed the books that Joe is talking about:

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=16404.15

I believe he ordered Dale Clemen's books #2 and #3, but it's better to wait for him to confirm.

Chad

[Reel 224]

Joe, that looks great! Please tell me what books you and Chad are talking about. It would be an immense help.

The two books Chad told about and I bought them is Custom Rod Thread Art and Advanced Custom Rod Building both books are authored by Clemen's

I fond these books to be very helpful.

Joe

[Tightlines667]

Looking good Joe!

What are you using for finish there?

River,

I recently read the same 2 books.  They have alot of great information, but are a bit dated and should be supplemented with some more modern you tube videos instructional videos.  The RodBuilding.org forum, and  some of its members are also valuable resources imho.

http://rodbuilding.org/list.php?2

The Custom Rod Builders Guild...

http://www.rodguild.com

and "The Rodcrafters Journal", published quarterly are also great resources for networking (or so I've heard).

[Reel 224]

I joined the Rod Builders Guild and it's not that great for information, the site doesn't have that much activity and it seams to me at least to be a bit impersonal, not like this site. For my money I would not renew my subscription. YouTube is much better.

Joe   

[cbar45]

I recently read the same 2 books.  They have alot of great information, but are a bit dated and should be supplemented with some more modern you tube videos instructional videos.  The RodBuilding.org forum, and  some of its members are also valuable resources imho.

http://rodbuilding.org/list.php?2

Tom at rodbuilding.org is also the editor of Rodmaker Magazine of which I was a past subscriber.

I found the info covered to not only be helpful, but also interesting as the writers delve into a variety of current and upcoming rodbuilding topics/techniques--as well as the basic nuts-and-bolts for those just starting out.

Each year RM hosts the International Custom Rod Building Expo in Winston Salem, NC:

http://www.icrbe.com

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClARb8BM5k_GsaSalxq_vbA

The hands-on tutorials and purchasing opportunities at the ICRBE are definitely worth it, if you can make it.

Chad

[bill19803]

Just a comment or two   from   fisherman/rod builder/top shot maker
Sometime us hobbiests  go  to great lengths     for very little  or no  gain in practical  applications. Yes  Ive  got   10 years old   rods  that have literally been tortured  by  fish over   200 lbs   with    color preserver   used   and  nary a problem. Maybe    with   365  use   there might be a failure   maybe. I  suspect none of us use our tackle  to its  max potential that we build into it. Yes there is  personal pride  in   making something perfect,  to the best of  our knowledge and ability   but   from a  functional   standpoint we overdo it  Just  sayin
dont  shoot me please

[oc1]

I agree Bill.  In my hands a rod going to get beat up and eventually broken.  The goal is to make them as light as possible, with the best possible performance, for as long as possible, and for as cheap as possible.  No one else is going to see them and my eyesight isn't what it used to be so aesthetics are ignored completely.

I have been using light weight guides with a single wrap and with just enough generic varnish to wet the thread (and wipe off the excess).  Then the other day I had a wind knot in the last three or four guides, the line would not budge, the jig was snagged on the bottom, the wind was blowing the canoe along at three knots, the blank is rated for six to ten pound line but it was attached to the bottom with thirty pound braid, and something was going to break.  Luckily, with the rod pointed at the snag, it just bent a guide and did not break off the tip when the wind knot was jerked free.  Guides and tread are cheap but new blanks are not.  Now I thinking of eliminating the thread varnish near the tip so a guide will be pulled off the rod to protect the tip when it happens again.
-steve