Drag Fade

[Alto Mare]

It's ok to get deep into it, that's when good things happen.

This one deserves a sticky.

Keep your opinions coming.

Sal

[jurelometer]

I totally understand the discussion and I'm more than happy to add what I know about heat transfer and engineering.  The question was drag fade in terms of drag washers heating up.  Even if you somehow increased the efficiency of heat transfer from the drag washers, the washers are still producing the heat and will continue to get hot until you remove the conditions making them heat up.  The nature of friction at high speeds is that it produces heat, increasing the heat transfer will not cool them down until after they slow down.  So you will still need to stop the fish, which is why I said to increase performance in terms of working loads.

But the drag doesn't need to run that long, so slowing down the process is sufficient.

Since a reel drag is always a limited duration  system (there is only so much line on the reel),  it doesn't have to stay below a heat threshold  (200F? )  forever,  just for a couple of minutes.  Star drags are the toughest nut to crack as the mechanism by its nature is tightly encapsulated.  So I think I see your point about the inherent limits.

  But there are potential ways to improve the cooling that I haven't seen discussed here.   On the other hand, we don't know exactly how much cooler we need (vs. want) these reels to run.  It may not be worth the effort and feature trade offs.  BTW -I think the key is airflow.  A couple changes in material may not do so much.

Since spectra now allows these smaller saltwater reels to hold the same amount of line  with 3-4X the original  strength,  it is natural for this group of folks to see how far these reels can be modified to take advantage of this new capability.

I do agree that if the goal is simply to stop the fish and the current reel is insufficient, one can simply purchase  a  newer/stronger reel specced for this purpose.    But with this bunch, it is like telling a hot rodder that he/she might be better off buying a new Accura instead of trying to jam yet a few more horsepower into that 67 Chevelle

-J

[Rivverrat]

of attacking cats, I believe the world record blue was caught near me on a stock 309...so I don't think you need a Cal's blueprint for catfishing...

I was thinking a penn 209 or 7000 ambassadeur would be more than enough for any American cat.

Open water, in a boat yes. Most times those 2 reels would get it done. However dealing with fast current & very dense structure changes things. Also the fact Im after a record class fish.
Blue cat tend to be a more open water fish at least more so than the Fathead cat. Been spooled using a 7000 C3 more than once.
Other than always looking for the perfect rod I'm completely set up for cat reels at present. Prior to coming to this sight this has been a life long & at times a frustrating search.

A big thanks for this goes to this sight & its members who are so willing to share their knowledge & help when issues with my reels come up . I've learned a tremendous amount from the people here & have used this to finally obtain  what I believe are the best record class, catfish reels for the money spent. These are the very best reels Ive ever owned

This reel here would be for sharks maybe a dozen times a year. Enjoying this thread...Jeff

[Three se7ens]

Looks like I may need to change up my drag kits to a hard brass material for heat dissipation, but I'm not sure if it will be as strong.

This is an interesting discussion, but there is a fundamental idea here that's being ignored.  Heat in and of itself is only a problem when it exceeds the safe limits on the parts themselves.  Brakes on race cars are a very good example, because they deal with the same forces at play here, but many magnitudes larger.  Brake pads are chosen based on the temperature at which they work best.  For street cars, its pads that perform well cold.  For race cars though, they are typically made from compounds that only work well hot.  For example, carbon/carbon brakes in F1, etc.  do not work well below 750 degrees F, and work best around 1100 degrees F.  

This explains the switch to carbon fiber and stainless for drag washers.  They do not conduct heat well, but they have very high service temperatures.  Where a hard run may scorch oiled felt or the gasket type drag washers, carbon fiber washers are less likely to be affected by the heat.  

Heat isnt really an issue until you approach the maximum service temperature of the components.  In a most extreme case, I think the fiberglass core and binder/glue in current carbon fiber washers would be a liability.  I dont know the specific compounds used, but the service temperature of those binders could be as low as 200-300 degrees, while a pure carbon washer could withstand 4-5 times that.  

[Bill B]

This is all above my pay grade, but I do remember a famous fish movie where Chief Brody was ordered to grab the chum ladle and pour some water on the reel  and that was a large Penn to boot......Bill

[Dr. Jekyll - AKA MeL B]

i should have written popular production car instead of automobile...  

oops popular=affordable

https://www.google.com/#q=automobile+definition

after market brake kits or slot or drill your own brake disks preferably the front pair

[Indyfisher]

Daron, I'm completely set up for cat reels. I have what I think are the best reels for the money for 20 30 50 60 & 80 lb. line. 3 combos for each of these line classes for catfish.  
This reel would be for sharks. I'm looking for small to midsize shark reels....Jeff

What are your current combos in the 60 and 80lb line class?

[Tightlines667]

The other option for dealing with excessive heat is to use ceramics.  Often wondered how drag performance wouod be affected by ceramic coated, or full ceramic drag discs ( in place of metal ones).  Ceramics are used on high end airplane, auto/motorcycle racing, etc. 

Worthy of exploration.

[Indyfisher]

The other option for dealing with excessive heat is to use ceramics.  Often wondered how drag performance wouod be affected by ceramic coated, or full ceramic drag discs ( in place of metal ones).  Ceramics are used on high end airplane, auto/motorcycle racing, etc. 

Worthy of exploration.

Would ceramic washers be able to be cut as thin as some of the stacks require? At that thin would they become fragile? Just curious as I've never worked with ceramic outside of automotive brake pads.

[Tightlines667]

The other option for dealing with excessive heat is to use ceramics.  Often wondered how drag performance wouod be affected by ceramic coated, or full ceramic drag discs ( in place of metal ones).  Ceramics are used on high end airplane, auto/motorcycle racing, etc.  

Worthy of exploration.

Would ceramic washers be able to be cut as thin as some of the stacks require? At that thin would they become fragile? Just curious as I've never worked with ceramic outside of automotive brake pads.

Ceramic washers are currently available in 2 different primary composites.  They have excellent anticorrosion, thermal expansion/insulation (they servevas a great heat sink w/o expanding), and respond well to compression forces.

Unfortunately, it is my understanding that they are somewhat fraiable and shatter under impact forces.  There are several companies looking at integrating carbon or other compounds into the production process in order to combat this weakness.  There is a growing demand for ceramic fasteners (including thin washers) that are capable of suataining greater torque and impact forces.  

One such promising approach is to...

" the future, it's possible we will be adding carbon nanotubes into the ceramic powders and binders before forming ceramic parts, including fasteners. This could strengthen the fasteners, make them more resistant to impacts, and capable of handling more torque"

So to answer your question.. right now thin washers are too fragile for this application.  

However, ceramic coated metal washers might give some of the properties we would be looking for.  

Ceramics are worthy of consideration.

John

Here are some properties of the 2 types(PSZ/Zirconia looks to be the most promising for the drag washer application) ...

CERAMIC FASTENERS
Size   
Destructive torque (lb-in.)
Tensile strength (psi)
Maximum temperature (°C)
4-40   
2.4
4,400
1,600
6-32   
3.3
5,000
1,600
8-32   
7.4
7,000
1,600
10-32   
11.7
8,000
1,600
1/4-20   
14.6
8,000
1,600

PROPERTIES OF ALUMINA AND ZIRCONIA
Property

Alumina (A998)
Zirconia (PSZ)
Composition by weight   
99.8% Al2O3
5.4% Y2O3
Density gm/cm   
3.89
6.0
Porosity (volume %)   
Impervious
Impervious
Color   
Ivory
Off-white
Hardness (GPa Knoop)   
11.1
11.7
Four-point bend strength (MOR) (MPa)   
330
760
(psi)   
48,000
110,000
Maximum temperature (°C)   
1,650
2,200
Thermal expansion coefficient (from 25 to 700°C) (1/ °C)   
7.5 X 10-6
11.2 X 10-6
Thermal conductivity (@20°C) (W/m°K)   
35
2
((Btu in.)/(ft2 hr °F))   
242
14
Dielectric strength (V/mil)   
200
51
Dielectric constant (@1 MHz and 20°C)   
10.0
28
Volume resistivity: -cm @ 25°C   
Greater than 10-14
Greater than10-13
-cm @ 300°C   
2.5 X 10-11
N/A
-cm @ 500°C   
5.5 X 10-8
4.8 X 10-3

[Indyfisher]

Great information on the ceramic John.

[Indyfisher]

What hasn't been found is at what temperature the drag fade occurs. The boss's test in infrared. 

[Alto Mare]

Let's not start swapping parts until we see a problem. I haven't run into any melted Delrin to date, some of my tests have been hard on the reel.

A while back Lee sent me some perforated keyed washer per my request, I decided to give them a shot...why not

Numbers were lower but only by 8 degree. Still, going in the right direction.
Keep in mind, my test here is short, maybe these numbers will make a difference when the fish goes for a run.

Sal

[Tightlines667]

Let's not start swapping parts until we see a problem. I haven't run into any melted Delrin to date, some of my tests have been hard on the reel.

A while back Lee sent me some perforated keyed washer per my request, I decided to give them a shot...why not

Numbers were lower but only by 8 degree. Still, going in the right direction.
Keep in mind, my test here is short, maybe these numbers will make a difference when the fish goes for a run.

Sal

I am not saying we have seen problems with Delron melting, but there are numerous documented cases of the drags binding or getting frozen after heating up.  I myself have had a star become immovable on a 9/0 when the reel was getting spooled by a large Blue.  In this case the inability to back the drag off led to a line part.  There are also cases of stars cracking when the gear sleeve heats up and expands faster/more then the star.  I have seen this with aluminum stars and SS sleeves from local Ulua fishermen.  Drag fade is one issue, increased drag surginess is another, and the binding of drag components due is yet another possible problem related directly to heat.  In most cases both, these issues can usually be managed by the angler.

Don't get me wrong, I like and trust star drags, and the upgrades we have available have increased their performance significantly. 

Just exploring how to deal with the negative effects of heat on the reel, and asking if someday it might he possible to build an even better mouse trap.

[Lowprofile]

I haven't read through the whole thread but I can tell you from catching multiple Marlin on senator 12/0's with greased carbon fibers drags that after the initial run, taking 300-400yrds of line with around 35lbs of drag, the entire reel heats up, grease from The drags, the gears and anywhere else you might put it comes pouring out from under the handle and there is virtually no useable drag at that point. I always pour cold, fresh water over the reel to cool it down and get it to a point a customer can start reeling but it takes awhile for the drags to cool and when they do the reel is now putting out over 50lbs of drag and it takes adjustment. This is where the old saying of "my reel seized up" came from. Burned up drags that's finally cooled and the drag, due to the lack of line in the spool, was 3-4 times what it started out as and the reels or like couldn't handle it.

The drag inserts that have come from this site are great, especially for the 4/0 size reel because we can beef them up, throw on 80lb line and lock it down to 30lbs of drag and stop a fish from getting into the reef. The grease helps it cool after short hard runs and everything works like it's supposed to.

For lighter lines or fish that will take 3-400 yards of line we need to look at wider surface areas for drags, not just overall and air cool systems.