113h/114h senator - short version

Started by alantani, January 25, 2009, 01:57:47 AM

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George4741

I recently rebuilt my 113H and installed the 5+1 HT100's and new metal washers, too.  It is an older 113H with open drags.  Like yours, the gear sleeve bound up.  The main gear would rub against the side plate when I placed the thicker 6-875 (HT100) washer under it, so I dremelled out the side plate for clearance.  I used Alan's 111 Senator tutorial for instructions on how to do it.  It turned fine after that, so it isn't an unheard of problem.

BTW, I had to do the same thing on my black 113 Senator (not H) and need to do it on my 111 Senator, too.  I'm wondering if many of the older Senators that originally came with 3 drag washers lack the necessary clearance for the 5+1 drag washer set-up.

As they say "measure twice and cut once".  In your case, carefully check twice, and if needed, dremel once. 

George 
viurem lliures o morirem

Alto Mare

#76
I just checked one of my 113h with the easy access drag system. the reel has not been dremeled out and it works great. My metal washers from the kit are .94 mm thick and the HT 100's are 1 mm thick, but I just noticed that I did not use the 6-875 washer for under the main gear, I used one of the same HT100 that I installed in the drag stack, all I did was to enlarge the inner hole a little. I have been using some of these reels with this set-up and have not experienced any problems.

Correction!
I just pulled my 113H apart. The HT100 washer's hole has not been enlarged I was thinking of a spacer washer under the sleeve but that's something else. So I used 5 HT100's in the drag stack and one of the same for under the main gear. My reel works flawlessly.
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.

alantani

when the main gear rubs against the side plate, it is usually the thick penn drag washer under the main gear that is the cause of the problem.  a thinner carbontex washer usually eliminates this problem. 
send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

Alto Mare

Quote from: George4741 on May 29, 2011, 02:14:50 AM

BTW, I had to do the same thing on my black 113 Senator (not H) and need to do it on my 111 Senator, too.  I'm wondering if many of the older Senators that originally came with 3 drag washers lack the necessary clearance for the 5+1 drag washer set-up.

As they say "measure twice and cut once".  In your case, carefully check twice, and if needed, dremel once. 

George 
George, I just read the second part of your comment. I don't believe that increasing the drags on those reels that you mentioned here is a good idea. Each additional washer will give you approximately 5 pound of added pressure on the drags, those reels are not designed to handle that much pressure. If you do have the stainless steel gear sleeve you would be ok there but there is a chance that you could fry your gears if fished over 10 pounds. The 5+1 can be done, as you proved it but I would be very careful on how I fish it. Take care, Sal
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.

George4741

Quote from: Alto Mare on May 29, 2011, 10:17:44 AM
George, I just read the second part of your comment. I don't believe that increasing the drags on those reels that you mentioned here is a good idea. Each additional washer will give you approximately 5 pound of added pressure on the drags, those reels are not designed to handle that much pressure. If you do have the stainless steel gear sleeve you would be ok there but there is a chance that you could fry your gears if fished over 10 pounds. The 5+1 can be done, as you proved it but I would be very careful on how I fish it. Take care, Sal

Your warning is noted, and since I spool my 111 and 113 Senators with 30lb mono, a draq setting of 33% will be sufficient (I need to get a pull scale).   

Sal, what are your thoughts on the 113H?  I get the impression that this is a much more capable reel, and many people greatly exceed 10lbs of drag.
viurem lliures o morirem

Alto Mare

#80
In my opinion the Penn Senator 113H is one of the best reels out there for the money, no one even comes close. Although it is very capable of handling over 20 pounds, I wouldn't push it over 15 pounds. I have a few that I customized for myself with stainless steel gears, stainless steel gear sleeve and stainless steel yoke, Those reels are built like tanks and I wouldn't be too worried about pushing them to their limit. Of course how you use your reel and the line has a lot to do with it. Take care, Sal

By the way, setting your drag at 33% on that 111 and 113 is all good, but with my experience it doesn't mean much. When that trophy fish hits your line, I doubt that you're going to keep it at 33% and if your line give up before your gears, you did good.
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.

erikpowell

Bula All & thanks for the rapid responses.... Ai tukana...it's sunday afternoon in Fiji....don't you guys have anything better to do on a Saturday night stateside? ;D ;D
Rob- spot on.. Tib kit came wit narrow spool, nice one too. I had to buff out the old inner rings so not to spoil the look.
The newer style that Sal refers to would be nice..to be able to ditch the inner rings altogether... i tried it like that to check but mines definitely not the new one.
Yeah, I'm sure you're right Alan... it's the under gear washer is too thick. the thin carbontex would shave 1mm off the thickness
..that's what it needs. I did the same as Sal on this one...same ht-100 under the gear as in the drag but it's just not working for me.
As soon as I snug down the bridge screws...that last half turn or so...the gear goes tight.
So from Smoothdrag... is it the "Penn 113H Thin -Set of 6-   $17.00" I should have on hand for this or is there a different one? Thanks


Norcal Pescador

Quote from: erikpowell on May 29, 2011, 07:54:12 PM

So from Smoothdrag... is it the "Penn 113H Thin -Set of 6-   $17.00" I should have on hand for this or is there a different one? Thanks


You are correct Erik - Five 113H washers for the drag stack and the sixth washer goes under the main gear to make the 1+5. 8)
Good luck with it. ;)
Rob
Rob

Measure once, cut twice. Or is it the other way around? ::)

"A good man knows his limits." - Inspector Harry Callahan, SFPD

Alto Mare

Erik, I don't know how thick your HT100's are, I did check what I have and believe it or not I came up with 3 different tickness on the same washer for the 113H. They are .80 mm, 1 mm and 120 mm  :-\ go figure. I don't remember where I got them from, some came out of some 113h's that I customized and I think some came from Scott's, as a kit with metal washers included. I know there is a way to install the 1+ 5 configuration without using the dremel. If you have a digital caliper ( I love mine by the way, thanks Rob and crew for the tip) check all the ones that you have and if by any chance one of them is thinner than the rest, try it under the gear and see what it does.
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.

Alto Mare

Quote from: norcal pescador on May 29, 2011, 10:11:53 PM
Quote from: erikpowell on May 29, 2011, 07:54:12 PM

So from Smoothdrag... is it the "Penn 113H Thin -Set of 6-   $17.00" I should have on hand for this or is there a different one? Thanks


Erik, there is no need for you to replace the 5 washers for the drag stack, all you need is the one that goes under the gear, unless you would like to have extras. I could send you one of the .80 mm if you would like, just send me a pm and I'll put it in an envelope ,hopefully it will work.They do work on mine, just let me know. Take care, Sal
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.

Tidetime

Finally landed some good sized fish with my 113h ebay special.  Drag worked great, nice and smooth.  I did notice a couple of things and wanted to get some opinions. 

1.) The shop overloaded the spool (IMO) and it tended to gather on one side only (handle side).  I took some line off but, haven't tried it since, anyone else have that problem?

2.) Under load it seemed to be tough to reel.  Without load its smooth and has good freespool.  I pulled the clicker side bearing and noticed some play with the inside race.  Could that be the issue? 

Alto Mare

Sounds like you got your money's worth already ;D. 1) Are you thumbing  the line when you're reeling it in? I like to keep the line a 1/4 of an inch away from the edge of the spool on all of my reels. 2) Most  reels are going to be tough to reel  with a nice size fish on, I don't beleive that it is the bearing, but I don't really know  how tough you'e talking about. Did you give that reel the A T treatment? Greased carbon washers and a nice  power handle would help.
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.

coverhill

I have a question about the proper amount of spool sideplay in the below described reel.

I've just acquired a Penn "113H" whose clicker side sideplate shows "Penn Senator 4/0 Special", with the bearing on that sideplate being a "ball bearing" (inscribed on that cap) with no exterior oiling point built into that bearing cap. This reel was reportedly purchased about 40 years ago and the Penn "manual" within the reels Penn box carries a 1969 printing date. This reel is brand new, never mounted or fished. End plates are the Penn maroon red color and handle is amber in color. Gear ratio is 3 1/4 to 1.

However, when in its "freespool" mode the spool has about 1/16 inch sideplay, with the clicker side bearing cap screwed down to maximum tightness. The right side (handle side) "ball bearing" cap on this reel appears to be a press fit and appears not to be adjustable. When the drag lever is thrown into the "drag-on" position the spool shift results in no sideplay then existing.

I'm not new to disassembling fishing reels and all of my prior experience is that you can remove ALL of the spool sideplay by screwing in the bearing caps (then loosening them just enough so that the spool rotates freely). Therefore I'm wondering why this condition exists with this reel.

I believe the reel is as it came from the factory and am wondering why it has this much sideplay in the spool, AND if that can be removed.


Norcal Pescador

Hmmmmm .......... Yes you're right, the bearing in the right side plate is pressed into place from the inside. You can get to it once the bridge assembly is removed from the side plate and it should pop out with a little pressure from your finger. You're correct again on the left bearing being adjustable to set the side play.
Okay, here's what I suggest:
Take the right side plate off, remove the spool and set both aside. Tighten the left spool bearing then remove it counting how many turns to remove it. Is there any corrosion present? Clean the threads on the bearing cap and the side plate. Put a light coat of grease on the threads, insert the bearing and tighten it as far as you can with only your fingers, again counting how many turns until tight. Same number of turns? If more turns, back off the bearing cap several turns, reassemble the reel and see if you can tighten up the side play. When you're tightening the bearing, don't take it all the way to tight and then back off. It is much better for the bearings to tighten them a little at a time until there is very little side play.
Try that and if it didn't help, let us know. There will be more to do (like Alan's rebuild) to make sure the reel's ready to go.
Rob
Rob

Measure once, cut twice. Or is it the other way around? ::)

"A good man knows his limits." - Inspector Harry Callahan, SFPD

coverhill

Rob,

Thank you for your response to my inquiry about a sideplay issue.

I've just now checked the reel's clicker side (1) plate threads, and (2) bearing cap threads - both are clean as a whistle and without issues. I did clean the old 40 year old grease from these and regreased with Penn grease before I sent my original inquiry.

I have not removed the right sideplate as I don't understand that would have an influence on your suggestion regarding making certain that bearing cap on the clicker side is fully seating, which is a fully understandable suggestion and a good one. My left side bearing cap does seat into the end plate as far as it will go, e.g. to the upper end of the bearing cap threads.

I am wondering if there should be a shim or spring that is part of the clicker side bearing mechanism; one that would remove that sideplay. On both my older 4/0 (2:1 gear ratio) and 6/0 the clicker side bearing cap has a coil spring that slips over its outside diameter; but those bearing caps include a provision for inserting oil and are a different part compared to this "ball bearing" cap.

Coverhill