Trinidad 12A - frustrated

[andrew555]

Hey guys,
I have a couple of Trinidad 12A and 16A's, and they are working great but figured I'd do regular annual maintenance on them.
Tried the 12A first and spent way too much friggin time trying to get it back together to run smooth. Feels like a coffee grinder now.
I followed a couple of videos and the schematic to put back together but I'm frustrated and taking a break.
Any obvious things I should check once I try again?
Reel is working, Drag is working but it's not smooth like it was before I started messing with it.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Andrew

[Bryan Young]

When you take the 16 apart, try marking thr Min and pinion gears were the meet up as the likely wear together. This should help in the years appearing to be meeting their smoothies. With regards to your 12, I will likely shift the meeting here a couple of teeth FaceTime and reassembly the Rio to see if that smooth it out until you have gun one for circumference

[jurelometer]

Hmm,

All of the (modern) conventional reels that I have come across use a hunting gear ratio (mutually prime numbers of teeth - no common divisor other than one - this usually means at least one prime number, and/or odd numbers),  so there are no pairs of teeth that come into contact more than others.  Won't hurt (or help) to mark and clock gears, but if the gears are rough after reassembly, the cause is more likely to be a slight change in height, so that different parts of the teeth faces are now in contact.  If gears are non-hunting, they should have witness marks to indicate alignment on reassembly,

Haven't played with a Trinidad myself, but this is the type of thing that Shimano usually gets right.

Rough drag after maintenance could be from contamination of  non-CF washers, or maybe partial greasing of CF washers?   If the gear teeth were causing a rough drag, it would probably also be felt when winding.

-J

[JasonGotaProblem]

I have no specific experience with the trinidad (other than having a wife who was born in the actual country) so this is just general thoughts and questions.

You weren't clear, or at least not clear enough for an idiot like myself, if you meant that it felt rough turning the handle or pulling drag. Or maybe when spinning on freespool? Different causes for any of the above. Some ideas not mentioned above:

Are there shims above and below the main gear? If so they may be in the wrong order.
Another thought: Try backing off a half turn on all the screws on the handle-side. See if it got any smoother. Some reels get oddly sticky if one or two screws are over-tightened.
How much force did you put into removing the bearings? Is it possible you damaged one?

[andrew555]

Thank you for your responses, I will try moving the gears so they mesh better and remove all the extra grease I added... friggin thing worked perfectly before i touched it

[jurelometer]

[Moderator: should  this thread be moved to the Shimano sub forum?]

Better to try go methodically, rather than trying to get lucky on a random shot.

1.  If the roughness happens when winding but not during drag, the anti-reverse system is the most likely place to look, especially the one way bearing in the handle.

I have found that ungreased stainless gear teeth can be a bit grindy -  not terrible for my taste, be maybe more annoying for someone else.  Might want to rule this out just in case.

2.  If the roughness only happens when the drag is going out, then the problem is on the drag surfaces.  Most likely sources are contaminated drag washers (I think that  earlier Trinidads and  Toriums came with original Dartanium drag washers that were not supposed to be greased) or some parts in the drag stack out of order or not fully seated.

3.  If the roughness occurs both under drag and when winding, the problem has to be something that moves in both situations.  That is pretty much just the gears.    Worn teeth is the most common, but out of order/missing parts, or improper seating can cause this too.Something as simple as having the jack flipped around backwards on some reels.

4. What was done between the reel working and not working?  If you broke the reel down to a pile of parts, cleaned and relubed everything, then all options are on the table.  If you just took the sideplate off and removed a few parts, you can narrow down.

5.  You should be able to feel any gear roughness when both winding and pulling line under drag (the gears are turning in both situations), but it may be more obvious when winding. Since these are hunting gears, there is no mating of specific gear teeth combinations, so trying to find the magic combination is a waste of time. 

6. Check out the Trinidad and Torium threads on the Shimano forums on this site.   These reels are popular and have some common problems, so you might see a match of symptoms.

-J

[JasonGotaProblem]

We really need to get to the bottom of the definition of the problem. OP can you tell us when of the options above the grinding is felt?

Also is it grindy or just more resistance? Many shimano reels don't come with much grease from the factory. So if you grease it down it will feel less free-moving because the grease slowed it down.

[andrew555]

ok, when in free spool, smooth no grinding at all. Spins freely in both directions.
when locked and winding, it feels the gears arent meshing smoothly. under drag, again its smooth...
only when I am reeling do I feel the gears... doesnt worsen if i tighten down the drag or loosen drag all the way.

thanks again fellas

[andrew555]

We really need to get to the bottom of the definition of the problem. OP can you tell us when of the options above the grinding is felt?

Also is it grindy or just more resistance? Many shimano reels don't come with much grease from the factory. So if you grease it down it will feel less free-moving because the grease slowed it down.

its grindy... feels like its clicking with each turn of the reel handle.

[jurelometer]

ok, when in free spool, smooth no grinding at all. Spins freely in both directions.
when locked and winding, it feels the gears arent meshing smoothly. under drag, again its smooth...
only when I am reeling do I feel the gears... doesnt worsen if i tighten down the drag or loosen drag all the way.

thanks again fellas

its grindy... feels like its clicking with each turn of the reel handle.

That makes it #1 on the list.

The gears also turn when the drag goes out, but gear roughness will be less obvious, and the opposite sides of the teeth are rubbing.  So it doesn't 100% rule out the main gear, but it is relatively hard to damage a main gear during maintenance, unless you are pretty forceful during assembly.   I would argue that we need to look at the anti-reverse system.

Clicking with each  turn of the reel handle points to the one way bearing.  These reels come with one or both of the least reliable of anti-reverse mechanisms -eared (silent) dogs and one-way bearings.

If the one way bearing is the issue, you will be able to feel this by turning the handle shaft under some load when you have the reel apart.  This is a known problem.  Alan mentioned it on the Trinidad/Torium maintenance thread.  If the one way bearing was a bit corroded (this happens easily), it can get damaged by sliding out the main shaft during maintenance.  You might also be able to see some rust on the housing or internal parts of the one way bearing. 

If your reel was one with the eared dogs, any slight bending of the ears  or more than the tiniest amount of grease on the ratchet can cause the dog to malfunction.  Ears can easily be damaged during maintenance.  Taking out the dog temporarily can verify/rule this out, and also show if the one way bearing is slipping.  There is a drop-in parts upgrade to replace eared dogs with sprung dogs.  I would do this if it was my reel and it had eared dogs. 

If it really is the gears, and manifests once per handle turn, it has to be on the main gear teeth, and would be one or a couple of adjacent teeth.  Look for wear marks, especially towards the corners.   If you have to prove it to yourself on the gears, remove all grease, color the teeth  with a sharpie or similar,  put back together untreated and spin the handle a few times.  The ink will wear off the contact points first on any high spot/ damage.

Don't forget that if the gear teeth were not greased during maintenance, you will have a grindy feeling.  Hard to judge someone else's level.  Just like whiskey:  One man's  smooth  can be  another man's sandpaper.

On a side note, these reels are sort of an "upgraded" version of the TLD Star and TR designs.  If they had just slapped a shiny gold aluminum skin on the old design innards, they would have made better reels IMHO.  We wanted less handle backplay and no dog clicking, and we got what we asked for, along with a less durable design.

-J

[andrew555]

ok, when in free spool, smooth no grinding at all. Spins freely in both directions.
when locked and winding, it feels the gears arent meshing smoothly. under drag, again its smooth...
only when I am reeling do I feel the gears... doesnt worsen if i tighten down the drag or loosen drag all the way.

thanks again fellas

its grindy... feels like its clicking with each turn of the reel handle.

That makes it #1 on the list.

The gears also turn when the drag goes out, but gear roughness will be less obvious, and the opposite sides of the teeth are rubbing.  So it doesn't 100% rule out the main gear, but it is relatively hard to damage a main gear during maintenance, unless you are pretty forceful during assembly.   I would argue that we need to look at the anti-reverse system.

Clicking with each  turn of the reel handle points to the one way bearing.  These reels come with one or both of the least reliable of anti-reverse mechanisms -eared (silent) dogs and one-way bearings.

If the one way bearing is the issue, you will be able to feel this by turning the handle shaft under some load when you have the reel apart.  This is a known problem.  Alan mentioned it on the Trinidad/Torium maintenance thread.  If the one way bearing was a bit corroded (this happens easily), it can get damaged by sliding out the main shaft during maintenance.  You might also be able to see some rust on the housing or internal parts of the one way bearing. 

If your reel was one with the eared dogs, any slight bending of the ears  or more than the tiniest amount of grease on the ratchet can cause the dog to malfunction.  Ears can easily be damaged during maintenance.  Taking out the dog temporarily can verify/rule this out, and also show if the one way bearing is slipping.  There is a drop-in parts upgrade to replace eared dogs with sprung dogs.  I would do this if it was my reel and it had eared dogs. 

If it really is the gears, and manifests once per handle turn, it has to be on the main gear teeth, and would be one or a couple of adjacent teeth.  Look for wear marks, especially towards the corners.   If you have to prove it to yourself on the gears, remove all grease, color the teeth  with a sharpie or similar,  put back together untreated and spin the handle a few times.  The ink will wear off the contact points first on any high spot/ damage.

Don't forget that if the gear teeth were not greased during maintenance, you will have a grindy feeling.  Hard to judge someone else's level.  Just like whiskey:  One man's  smooth  can be  another man's sandpaper.

On a side note, these reels are sort of an "upgraded" version of the TLD Star and TR designs.  If they had just slapped a shiny gold aluminum skin on the old design innards, they would have made better reels IMHO.  We wanted less handle backplay and no dog clicking, and we got what we asked for, along with a less durable design.

-J

Thanks so much for the detailed info!!!