Boca Bearings? What's your take?

[Three se7ens]

The ABEC rating deals primarily with the geometery of a bearing.  The inner and outer races have a tighter size tolerance, and the runout tolerance is tighter as well.  None of that means anything if the shaft and housing arent made to the same tolerances.  The reduction in runout will likely be a much smaller factor than the balance of the spool.  The factor that matters most here would be the grade of balls used in the bearings, which is not directly a part of the ABEC grade.  The more perfectly round the balls are, and the more closely they are matched to the rest of the balls in a bearing will determine how the bearing spins.  This is where quality matters, and I recommend sticking to the major manufacturers when possible.  Just to be clear, Boca is not a manufacturer. 

Higher ABEC grade bearings can be tighter to spin than a lower grade, and likewise, high quality ABEC3 will be a better bearing than a low quality ABEC7.  Anything higher than ABEC3 in the spool, and ABEC1 on non-critical bearings in a reel will see rapidly diminishing returns for their cost.  There is simply no need for that level of precision. 

I dont know that its always an option with fishing reel sized bearings, but Nachi ABEC3 bearings performed better than the chinese ABEC5 bearings that came on my milling machine spindle.  For reference, industrial quality electrical motors usually have ABEC3 bearings, and ABEC5 and higher arent often seen except in machine tools and high precision equipment. 

[Jim Dempsey]

Very well put. I went to their North America site, but wasn't able to determine what would be the best for this type of application. Little help? Or; I can research it further.

After receiving the volume of information that I have; I think I put far too much emphasis on far too broad a research field. Definitely going to rethink the filming expenses, since by the time I'd tested every variable; I'd be $10,000.00 into costs that doesn't accurately represent every aspect. Not to mention; WAY more time than I'd budgeted.

I made a promise to Boca; and I'm going to follow through. But; you all have me curious about other manufacturers qualities, as well.

Wow. I really did open up a can of worms. Still looking forward to conducting the tests - if for no other reason; the experience.

Thanks. Keep those thoughts, ideas, and opinions coming! The bearing upgrades seem logical, but where's the jumping off point for cost vs. benefit? I haven't become "One with the reel" yet.

[SoCalAngler]

I thought Boca is only a distributor/retailer of bearings and such not a manufacture? Through my limited web search I could not find any info that they make their own bearings.

Also when you do your testing I hope you use the same rod and reel to test all the bearings. The slight variations in two different rods or reels, casting speed and how the rod tip loads and unloads can be enough to give you meaningful differences.

[Cor]

.................
I love full ceramic bearings run dry because they give the most distance and require the least amount of maintenance when the reel is routinely doused with saltwater.  Hybrid ceramic run dry is second choice.  Stainless run dry and replaced frequently third choice. Oiled stainless is last on the list although I guess chrome would be below that. 

...................

-steve

Where I live everything that you buy in the rest of the world is expensive, so I decided to try using good quality chrome steel bearings.   My reels generally don't get dunked and seldom get a lot of sea spray directly on them.

It was actually a pretty successful experiment as they lasted at least a year and were rather smooth.   I did keep them well lubed though.

The ones that sit on the drive shaft, despite being rubber sealed, were the first to corrode!

PS  Jim Dempsey, how sealed is rubber sealed?    Something else to test when you get done with this one

[oc1]

The only way the rubber seal could be a real seal is if it was contacting both the inner and the outer ring.  If something is contacting both the inner ring and the outer ring simultaneously then it is creating drag and is slowing the bearing down.  Keith noted one time that the orange seal is magnetic.  Some weird material. 

One good thing about the orange seal is that it is easy to remove without putting any pressure on the bearing and risking warping the cage.  The bearings were not designed for any lateral pressure so any time you push the inner ring and outer ring in opposite directions (like when removing the shield) you risk damage.  The cage doesn't have much substance and is easy to bend.
-steve

[Jim Dempsey]

I thought Boca is only a distributor/retailer of bearings and such not a manufacture? Through my limited web search I could not find any info that they make their own bearings.

Also when you do your testing I hope you use the same rod and reel to test all the bearings. The slight variations in two different rods or reels, casting speed and how the rod tip loads and unloads can be enough to give you meaningful differences.

Clearly; they are simply a distributor.

And; yes, I'll be using a Veritas Toro Winch 50-100lb line rated rod for the big reels, and a 14-30lb Villain for the small Morrum and low profile baitcasters. Same reels on all tests with the same line, spool, brake settings, etc. Only difference will be the bearings. I've already fine tuned the reels - to the best of my ability - by removing the factory lubricants, cleaning all parts in an ultrasonic cleaner, and lubing up with conservative amounts of Cal's grease and TSI-321 oil on the appropriate rolling and friction surfaces. That after polishing the surfaces. Bear in mind: I'll be using larger weights on the larger reels for obvious reasons. Somewhat smaller on the low profiles. If I hooked a 3oz sinker to an STX; all I'd see was my spool of line disappear; in all likelihood, with either set of bearings.

Regardless of your preference of lubricants; I don't think anyone can deny that either of these are a fair standard. Consistency of the test equipment and testing environments means more towards achieving a fair result.

[Three se7ens]

The only way the rubber seal could be a real seal is if it was contacting both the inner and the outer ring.  If something is contacting both the inner ring and the outer ring simultaneously then it is creating drag and is slowing the bearing down.  Keith noted one time that the orange seal is magnetic.  Some weird material. 

One good thing about the orange seal is that it is easy to remove without putting any pressure on the bearing and risking warping the cage.  The bearings were not designed for any lateral pressure so any time you push the inner ring and outer ring in opposite directions (like when removing the shield) you risk damage.  The cage doesn't have much substance and is easy to bend.
-steve

The rubber seals in bearings often have a metal core to maintain their shape.  They typically lock into the outer race, and either contact, or nearly contact the inner race with a typical lip seal profile.  Your assumption is correct:  the better the bearing is sealed, the more drag there will be on it.  I suspect there is some variance between manufacturers in how tight the seals fit, so some may spin better while others may seal better. 

Boca is a distributor, but I believe they are also an assembler.  I think they "build" bearings from 3rd party components to cover their wide range of available styles.  Given their lead times, I dont think that is done by their supplier, but rather special bearings assembled in the US from standard components from their supplier(s).

[MarkT]

Assembling them themselves would let them achieve better QC too.  They can measure the outer race, inner race and balls and assemble them to get the tolerances and ABEC rating they're looking for.

[Jim Dempsey]

Having a little experience with their seals; I can say for certain that the orange rubber encapsulates a brass (or similar) metal support. If you remove one; the inside almost looks like it's notched where the bearing would ride against the metal. It looks like a tiny brass (or similar) ring inside the seal.

An interesting note: I ordered the wrong sized bearing early on and was going to exchange it. I'd already cleaned the bearings, lubed them with "Lightning Lube" and replaced the seals. When I realized that it was the wrong size; I put it back into the baggy. A week later; when I was going to exchange it; I was going to remove the seals to clean the bearings. No dice. It was like nail polish. Apparently; their lube is delivered via some petroleum distillate that evaporates quickly. But, not inside a baggie! I dug the seals out with an Exacto knife a little bit at a time. Bearings 1, Seal 0. Fearing that this may have happened to my other installed bearings, I removed them. All were pristine. Apparently there's just enough to deliver the lube that evaporates from a seal that's not 100% air tight. Freaked me out.

[Tiddlerbasher]

Mark I find that highly unlikely, I think Boca just buy in and resell bearings. For a company to perform quality control on a vast number of products is, in this day and age, not viable. Virtually every company employs quality assurance systems like ISO 9001 etc. That is they 'assume' the supplying manufacturer is telling the truth about their product - because they have a certificate that states it complies with blah blah. They never, or rarely, actually test the product. The only thing that is certified in a compliant company is the 'process' involved in manufacture. The 'product' is assumed compliant, to whatever standard, by virtue of their quality assured system. I may be biased but - when you deal with countries (CH springs to mind) that will print anything you want on a 'certificate' - well you know where I'm going.
When I was involved in the industry (Quality Control/ Assurance) quality meant 'fitness for purpose'. It did not mean luxury or this is better than that.
Probably another can of worms - but hey it's still bait

[handi2]

Having a little experience with their seals; I can say for certain that the orange rubber encapsulates a brass (or similar) metal support. If you remove one; the inside almost looks like it's notched where the bearing would ride against the metal. It looks like a tiny brass (or similar) ring inside the seal.

An interesting note: I ordered the wrong sized bearing early on and was going to exchange it. I'd already cleaned the bearings, lubed them with "Lightning Lube" and replaced the seals. When I realized that it was the wrong size; I put it back into the baggy. A week later; when I was going to exchange it; I was going to remove the seals to clean the bearings. No dice. It was like nail polish. Apparently; their lube is delivered via some petroleum distillate that evaporates quickly. But, not inside a baggie! I dug the seals out with an Exacto knife a little bit at a time. Bearings 1, Seal 0. Fearing that this may have happened to my other installed bearings, I removed them. All were pristine. Apparently there's just enough to deliver the lube that evaporates from a seal that's not 100% air tight. Freaked me out.

You will find that the seals with the metal on the back are magnetic. They may have a coating on the metal.

The ceramic hybrid bearings I get from China are from the Hobby Bearing Store. I believe they sell on eBay too. I only get ones for the small baitcasting reels. 3x10x4, 4x10x4, 3x7x3, 8x12x3.5, and a few others.

I have used some 6x12x4 and 4x11x4 in some of the smaller TLD's but not anymore. I get the SS ones from Dawn.

I take care of at least a dozen inshore and kayak charter fleets. Their baitcasting reels have these ceramic hybrid bearings. Once a year they come in for service and the spool bearings are reused.

Here is a couple of pictures of his reels to show they get a lot of use.

[Jim Dempsey]

Mark I find that highly unlikely, I think Boca just buy in and resell bearings. For a company to perform quality control on a vast number of products is, in this day and age, not viable. Virtually every company employs quality assurance systems like ISO 9001 etc. That is they 'assume' the supplying manufacturer is telling the truth about their product - because they have a certificate that states it complies with blah blah. They never, or rarely, actually test the product. The only thing that is certified in a compliant company is the 'process' involved in manufacture. The 'product' is assumed compliant, to whatever standard, by virtue of their quality assured system. I may be biased but - when you deal with countries (CH springs to mind) that will print anything you want on a 'certificate' - well you know where I'm going.
When I was involved in the industry (Quality Control/ Assurance) quality meant 'fitness for purpose'. It did not mean luxury or this is better than that.
Probably another can of worms - but hey it's still bait

Not sure if I should even mention this; but in a conversation with a person from Boca; I was informed that they're in constant search of a company that will allow them to meet ISO 9001 and ANSI certification - which leads me to believe it ain't happened yet. I wish them the best. Nicest bunch of folks that have bent over backwards to help me - based on constructive criticism of all things. I've read a great deal; and received several PM's that laud their excellent customer service. That's exceedingly rare in this day in time. But; it don't cut it when performance counts. Sorry. Bottom line.

So; I can nearly assure you - knowing what I know about achieving ISO and ANSI cert; they DON'T have a hand in the QC of the product. My company has just achieved ISO and ANSI cert; so I know the sometimes ridiculous hoops you have to jump through to get there - AND maintain it. Subject to audit, of course... All foam and no beer. That being said; I would bet you dinner at Chez Paul in Chicago that they don't perform any "finishing touches" on the end product. If that were so; it would make more sense that they'd be the actual manufacturer. Caveat: I'm not trying to bust anybody's ball bearings!

I would like to say a hearty "Thank You!" from those who've sent me PM's with information they'd rather not reveal. It's a PM for a reason. Rest assured that it will remain so. That being said; I will reveal a certain country that has been mentioned extensively: Japan. A couple of things: I travel to Japan fairly frequently. #1: They are the MOST hardcore fishermen I've ever met! Bar none. #2: Abu; et, al produce SP products strictly for Japan. No shocker there to those in the know. The coolest gear I have came from there (or Australia). #3: They are very disciplined about THEIR production quality. There are many Abu (and other) products that they absolutely will not buy, unless it was built to Japanese quality standards. (Go ahead; say what you will)  #4: Most of them are not fond of Americans. We don't meet their work ethic. True.

What started out as an idea think tank; turned out to be a combination cat fight and a much more informative subject about something I know (knew) little about. Wow! so much information to research and confirm or dispel. Bottom line is: AGAIN - I'm a NOVICE fisherman! Better than 50% of the topics I've read about fine tuning reels had some specific mention of Boca Bearings. Nobody else. Is it truth, or is it hype? I'm out to form my own opinion, based on my fishing technique and roll with what works for me.

God; am I glad you guys approved my membership for this board! I've never met a better, kinder, more educated, open minded, and knowledgeable bunch of folks in 57 years! Although; I'm sure that you rue the day...

Let's keep rolling! Thanks!

[Jim Dempsey]

Having a little experience with their seals; I can say for certain that the orange rubber encapsulates a brass (or similar) metal support. If you remove one; the inside almost looks like it's notched where the bearing would ride against the metal. It looks like a tiny brass (or similar) ring inside the seal.

An interesting note: I ordered the wrong sized bearing early on and was going to exchange it. I'd already cleaned the bearings, lubed them with "Lightning Lube" and replaced the seals. When I realized that it was the wrong size; I put it back into the baggy. A week later; when I was going to exchange it; I was going to remove the seals to clean the bearings. No dice. It was like nail polish. Apparently; their lube is delivered via some petroleum distillate that evaporates quickly. But, not inside a baggie! I dug the seals out with an Exacto knife a little bit at a time. Bearings 1, Seal 0. Fearing that this may have happened to my other installed bearings, I removed them. All were pristine. Apparently there's just enough to deliver the lube that evaporates from a seal that's not 100% air tight. Freaked me out.

You will find that the seals with the metal on the back are magnetic. They may have a coating on the metal.

The ceramic hybrid bearings I get from China are from the Hobby Bearing Store. I believe they sell on eBay too. I only get ones for the small baitcasting reels. 3x10x4, 4x10x4, 3x7x3, 8x12x3.5, and a few others.

I have used some 6x12x4 and 4x11x4 in some of the smaller TLD's but not anymore. I get the SS ones from Dawn.

I take care of at least a dozen inshore and kayak charter fleets. Their baitcasting reels have these ceramic hybrid bearings. Once a year they come in for service and the spool bearings are reused.

Here is a couple of pictures of his reels to show they get a lot of use.

Just in case you think I'm full of it; here's the photos that I sent to Boca:

[handi2]

Jim take a razor blade and remove the entire shield. The color of the metal on the shield is what I see on all of them. If there is writing on the side please show that too.

Thanks


The Japan reels I receive in for service are definitely built slightly different than the USA purchased reels. They do put in more effort.

[Jim Dempsey]

I still have the "melted" shields. There is no writing on the orange coating of any of them - inside or out. Are you asking me to remove the rest of the orange to see if there's lettering on the metal inserts? If so; I'm not sure how to do it without possibly removing any lettering along with the rubber. That, assuming that I try to dissolve it with mineral spirits, or something similar. I'll try one; and if I don't see anything. I'll try a scalpel to shave through the remaining rubber in very thin increments.

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.