Handle torque measurement and physics

[Decker]

How would someone measure the force needed to crank a reel handle, given handle length, reel specs, line diameter on the spool, and weight on the line?  I began to think about this inspired by all the talk on this site about gear ratios, handle lengths, etc.

If I have a reel with 2:1 gear ratio, I would expect that, all other factors being equal, the force required to crank it, would be less than the same reel with a 4:1 gear ratio.  Since it would require less force, I would expect to be able to crank faster on the 2:1 reel.  If I were to shorten the handle, and the force were low enough to crank more from the wrist than from the arm, I could maximize the cranking speed.  Seem right?  Does anyone have a way (apart from the feel) to measure this?

I know there are two speed reels out there...  What about a two-speed handle -- a handle with two knobs at different distances from the center?  Suppose I am fishing very deep water with two pounds of lead...  A 2:1 reel would be slow, but could be cranked fast with a short handle diameter, right?   Now add a twenty+ pound fish to the end of the line.  A longer (power) handle would allow me to put my arm/shoulder into it for slow & steady cranking.   I don't know if this is at all practical because I've never fished in this situation, but I'd like to try to understand the physics of it.

In NJ there are party boats that go out for tilefish, and understand they sometimes fish in over 500 feet of water.  I don't think a tilefish fights like a tuna, nor as strongly as a halibut.  A Penn Mag 990 has a 4.7:1 retrieve ratio, which would be great from bringing up tackle fast. I wonder if one of those rock-cod handles would be useful with that reel and some big ones hooked.

i know a lot of guys use electric reels for deep fishing.  Has anyone here ever hooked up a power tool to a reel for this purpose, or built their own electric reel?

Sometimes I think too much

[Robert Janssen]

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=4589.0
among others

[mo65]

   There is some good food for thought here Joe. I'll blame you for this...I just had a vision...of a true convertible handle. How about a sliding handle arm, with detents to lock into several positions, from short to long? It really doesn't need to even perform, as long as the handle clicked in and out smoothly the bling factor would sell the thing! 

[Swami805]

I believe those handles exist Moe, I know I've seen them somewhere. It has a slot down the handle arm and mechanism to move the handle that pulls out and clicks into different pockets in the slot.  Don't think they well over too well.

[Decker]

  There is some good food for thought here Joe. I'll blame you for this...I just had a vision...of a true convertible handle. How about a sliding handle arm, with detents to lock into several positions, from short to long? It really doesn't need to even perform, as long as the handle clicked in and out smoothly the bling factor would sell the thing!  

Humor is absolutely necessary when it goes this far.   I started to read the link that Robert posted above and the first two pages are basically saying, "Forget about it!"  

I saw an adjustable-length handle somewhere:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/252668118121   I was thinking to replace a handle's counterbalance with a second knob.

Either that or hook up a lithium-powered right-angle impact wrench to my reel.  What kind of grease would you use?    

[Robert Janssen]

Read it more carefully. There is both a serious question and a serious answer there. Neither are difficult. Never mind the comments inbetween.

This has been discussed here at other times as well.

Adjustable handles and reels with extra, extendable arms have been introduced many times.

.

[Decker]

Read it more carefully. There is both a serious question and a serious answer there. Neither are difficult. Never mind the comments inbetween.

Thanks, Robert.  I didn't intend to dismiss the post, just haven't had time to read over it thoroughly. One of the great things about this site is that it provokes questions about how to do things differently, and at the same time there are years-old posts covering the same ground.  I've never been a good student of history, but aging is turning me in that direction.  Cheers, /Joe   

[oc1]

Something built like a torque wrench or just a modified torque wrench would measure the force.  You can also do the conversion mathematically.

To keep it simple, use a counterbalance-like handle but with a knob on the short side and another knob on the long side.  I've done it with small baitcasters but never with a serious big game reel.

-steve

[Tiddlerbasher]

If you really want to keep it simple/old school what about a spring balance hooked onto the handle knob? It will tell you something - but perception varies

[Decker]

Something built like a torque wrench or just a modified torque wrench would measure the force.  You can also do the conversion mathematically.

If you really want to keep it simple/old school what about a spring balance hooked onto the handle knob? It will tell you something - but perception varies

Steve, I scored a 4 in high school Advanced Placement Physics, but never looked back    If I'm using a torque wrench, doesn't the force applied with my hand while cranking depend on what part of the handle I'm holding (radius from the center)?  Torque is the force on the gear sleeve, not of my hand on the wrench, right?  There must be a formula involving pi or trigonometry.  The force of my hand is some fraction of the torque.  It's a lever. 

Tiddlebasher's method seems straightforward, but how would you move the scale around with the handle?

After I posted this, I realized that none of this ergonomics into account.  At this point, any meaningful quantitative analysis looks hopeless, but I'm still willing to learn from anyone willing to teach.  I need to hit the old posts.

Does anyone use those rock cod handles, and how are they?

[day0ne]

i know a lot of guys use electric reels for deep fishing.  Has anyone here ever hooked up a power tool to a reel for this purpose, or built their own electric reel?

Sometimes I think too much

https://hookerelectric.com/product/spooler-up-speedy-crank/

https://hookerelectric.com/product/spooler-up-speedy-crank/


http://www.fishwinch.com/

[Shark Hunter]

Joe,
I only have one thing to give to your post.
No Physics or Equations.
I mainly fish Big Senators. They are heavy as a cylinder block.
I use a heavy stainless Blade made by Lee or Adam, with a 5/0 grip from Alan.
You can crank on that until you bring a 600 lb fish to the shore.
It is all about Stamina. Nothing else. JMO

[Swami805]

I have a few of those old rockcod handles, pm your address and you can have one. I think it's for a 6/0 9/0 gear sleeve. We used to fish up to 1200 ft using those with a 5lb sinker 12 hooks and dacron line.

[Alto Mare]

I always thought a longer handle was key, not after I did some tests on my own and again, just my personal tests and my personal opinion.
A much longer handle will actually create more problems for you.
A few years back I was pulling a wagon with some bricks, I had a scale on it and registered 18-20 lbs, try to do so and you will see how hard it really is. Anyways, once i got it going by racing the tip of the rod and turning the handle, I had a hard time controlling the side to side rocking of the reel, as I kept turning.
One of Lee's handle actually got mangled, but he did come up with a thicker version.
Ever since then I've been mentioning that going longer than 3/4" from stock is not a good idea. I've mentioned this to Lee, Adam and Ala C.

Two bad things happen when using a really longer handle than stock size. 
1, as I've mentioned above is the side way rocking of the reel when under load. It is so much that I don't believe harness lugs would hep much.
2, all Senators and most older Penn reels have too much extra space around the spacer sleeve coming through the plate hole.
The longer handle will cause the gear sleeve to rock back and forth as well...not a good thing for the sleeve post and the gears.
Of course if you have one of the newer reels with the anti-reverse bearing by that hole, you would then get away with a longer handle, but I'm not sure on how much extra stress the rollers on that bearing could take.

My bottom line is 1/2" longer than stock is acceptable, anything much above that will only cause problems.
Again, just my opinion and I'm no engineer, I'm not good with just following specs, I need to feel things the best way I know how to.

Sal

[Decker]

Thanks, gentlemen!   Enough said!