A couple of Senator questions, ring breakage and drag stacks, 114H (-H?)

[JoseCuervo]

I am working on a generally beautiful Maroon plated 114. From the eBay pics the reel was nearly pristine with a ton of funk, but obviously you never know for sure if the reel isn't in your hands. I sent the gent selling it an offer to BIN -$5, less shipping, from his 10 day auction start price. He countered, I added $5, walked shipped for $55.

It arrived a few days later. I was happy with what I paid, even including replacing the tail side inner plate ring I'll have to get.

My questions are pretty general;

What causes a ring to break? I've seen quite a few rings cracked halfway (eye to edge), and a couple broken in half through an eye, but this is my first with two to three breaks, two adjacent eyes, one seat, one post. The other rings on the reel fit nicely, not tight so generally I would rule out plate swelling. I suppose it could have been dropped, but I would think that would be an outer ring and a bent handle condition.. My last potential scenario is overtightening screws on chamfered rings (which this one is not).

Another question on the drag stack;

Since it will likely be years before I can actually fish the reel, I'll just grease these hard fiber / asbestos drags and reassemble, but one of the keyed washers is 30% or so thicker than the other. What is the proper order here?

The actual question I have, is, is 2-114-I the correct left side inner ring for this reel? Does the -H imprint on the plate make this different from a 114H? Mystic mentions the different configs but I still am a bit new and unsure.

Thanks for your thoughts, pics below, I might need two posts for 5 pics.

Rob

[JoseCuervo]

Last pic-

[Swami805]

I don't think grease will help those washers, better off with no grease. If your ring has a part number get the same one. As far as cracking could have been any number of things or a combination of them. $55 you did good!

[JoseCuervo]

Thanks Swami. I will skip the Cal's. There sure isn't much between no drag and all drag with these.. Any ideas on the stack order and where the thicker slotted washer goes, higher or lower?

There are no numbers on this ring or either of the outers', but the other inner is a 2-114. Hmm, maybe one inner was replaced at some point. I must have missed that during cleaning, I know I looked at a few of the rings. They are both the same on the inner side, no?

Thanks-

Rob

[alantani]

the bakelite expands and makes the ring snap. 

[Maxed Out]

 The -H is only found on the earliest version of the 113H, so my guess is your 114-H is early version too(just a guess !!)...likely late 1960's or 1970's

EDIT: at first glance I didn't notice the later style knob which dates this reel to 1980's

Ted

[JoseCuervo]

Thanks Maxed Out, this might be older than me (1969).

After zooming in my own pics from my phone instead of a computer,  , I think some gorilla overtightened a couple of screws and cracked the ring.., you can see witness marks from the stand and the post. The other rings fit great. I was / am also worried a new one might need fitting.

Rob

[mizmo67]

Over tightening of screws combined with torque on a big fish can also split a ring. Good price on this one.

[Gfish]

Thanks Swami. I will skip the Cal's. There sure isn't much between no drag and all drag with these.. Any ideas on the stack order and where the thicker slotted washer goes, higher or lower?

There are no numbers on this ring or either of the outers', but the other inner is a 2-114. Hmm, maybe one inner was replaced at some point. I must have missed that during cleaning, I know I looked at a few of the rings. They are both the same on the inner side, no?

Thanks-

Rob

The drag stack should be: Brake washer(bw) in the bottom a the gear; "slotted" washer(sw); bw; eared washer; bw and fat sw. Now I'm unsure with what's called the top-hat washer and the 2 wavey(spring) washers as I don't have that arrangement on mine. Could be thin wavey washer on topa the fat sw; top-hat washer; thick wavey washer and star.
Consider non-asbestos washers such as carbon-tex(HT-100's from Penn).

[Tbrom]

Not to hijack the thread but how are you dating this reel? Location of the reel info?(12 o'clock vs 3 o'clock) Numbered vs non numbered parts? I am curious because I have a 114 and a 114-h. Both with numbered parts and external drag access that I have been narrowing the date down.

[Maxed Out]

Not to hijack the thread but how are you dating this reel? Location of the reel info?(12 o'clock vs 3 o'clock) Numbered vs non numbered parts? I am curious because I have a 114 and a 114-h. Both with numbered parts and external drag access that I have been narrowing the date down.

There is no way to put any specific year to this 114h. We know the 114h was introduced in 1963/64 with very few design changes thru the decades of production, which can make manufacture date tough to pinpoint

.....the "staircased" style knob on the handle could help narrow down a time frame. The early 114h had standard torpedo knob

[Brewcrafter]

I get so much good info and help from the "pros" on this forum, I hope that I can reciprocate in some way.  Went to the shelf and pulled out my 114H, and it has the "H" designation on the sideplate.  This designation is roughly at the 11:30 position.  It has a yellowish/caramel colored torpedo knob, that I know is original to the reel.  This was purchased new at Fedco in San Bernardino as a present for my Dad, and at that time I was a Webelo Scout (I have photos fishing on the "Flyer" 1/2 day boat out of Brebe's Landing in Morro Bay) so I would have to date my particular reel solidly in the 73-76 range and be pretty close on it.  It was married to a Sabre rod from California Tackle Company in Gardena, CA that was also purchased from Fedco at the same time (alas, no date info on the rod).  A year or two later (paper route money, and I didn't have a car yet to suck up ALL my cash so it was still the 70's) I picked up a matching rod and a standard Black 114 also at Fedco (my Dad felt the lower gearing would be a help for me, on top of a 6" Hog Handle  .  It has the same yellow/caramel colored handle, and the designation is located at the 3:00 position.  I still have all of the gear and the original boxes, but alas no solid date info or receipts beyond what I have said already.  These are both in the que to get some attention when I get the time, Alan helped me get my 113H up and running and it is my primary troller, and these two reels are next in the lineup.  Hope this helps and a big Thanks to everyone on the Forum who I have benefitted from their knowledge.

[JoseCuervo]

Thanks Swami. I will skip the Cal's. There sure isn't much between no drag and all drag with these.. Any ideas on the stack order and where the thicker slotted washer goes, higher or lower?

There are no numbers on this ring or either of the outers', but the other inner is a 2-114. Hmm, maybe one inner was replaced at some point. I must have missed that during cleaning, I know I looked at a few of the rings. They are both the same on the inner side, no?

Thanks-

Rob

The drag stack should be: Brake washer(bw) in the bottom a the gear; "slotted" washer(sw); bw; eared washer; bw and fat sw. Now I'm unsure with what's called the top-hat washer and the 2 wavey(spring) washers as I don't have that arrangement on mine. Could be thin wavey washer on topa the fat sw; top-hat washer; thick wavey washer and star.
Consider non-asbestos washers such as carbon-tex(HT-100's from Penn).

Thanks Gfish. It makes sense that the thicker slotted washer goes last rather than first, under the hat end of the stack.  

When I first got the reel I took the below pic for later reference. There was no adjustment available on the drag star AT ALL. I knew I'd figure it out, but the problem was staring me right in the face.. The lock washers on each side of the drag star acted like jamb nuts.

I am pretty sure the thick spring washer goes in the stack under the recessed hat on top of the thick slotted washer and the thin spring washer goes between the star and the hat. All is well and the drag adjusts. I still might not have the right schematic.

I have the ring on order but just left the hard fibers dry for now and serviced everything and put it back together. When I might fish it I'll buy an upgrade of some sort. 2nd pic is after cleanup.

Thanks all.

Rob

[RowdyW]

Rob, the first photo looks like the correct assembly. The top hat sits directly on the thick top keyed washer. In the second photo your top hat is sitting to high because of the thick bellvile washer is in the wrong location. Extra keyed washers can be used on top of the drag stack to adjust the height of the top hat if needed. The bottom edge of the top hat should should be half way into the plate with the drag backed off. When in full drag it would be almost flush with the plate not below the outer edge of the plate. That flange on the top hat is a partial water barrier. Too high or to low allows more water to enter the reel. I wouldn't try to save the original washers because they are made of asbestos which is bad to even handle. Wash your hands throughly after handeling them.         Rudy

[JoseCuervo]

Rob, the first photo looks like the correct assembly. The top hat sits directly on the thick top keyed washer. In the second photo your top hat is sitting to high because of the thick bellvile washer is in the wrong location. Extra keyed washers can be used on top of the drag stack to adjust the height of the top hat if needed. The bottom edge of the top hat should should be half way into the plate with the drag backed off. When in full drag it would be almost flush with the plate not below the outer edge of the plate. That flange on the top hat is a partial water barrier. Too high or to low allows more water to enter the reel.          Rudy

Thanks Rudy. At least it only took all of two minutes to change it to as you suggest. There is drag adjustment, unlike when I got it assembled this way, there must have been something else amiss / too tight, I could NOT move the star drag upon receipt. This pic is a fairly tight drag.

Rob