Hard fiber spacer washer

Started by captquint99, December 29, 2018, 01:37:55 PM

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captquint99

I have a general question on the mechanics of the drag system. What is the purpose of the hard fiber spacer washer under the main gear? Is this washer there to provide space between the bridge and gear sleeve and made to slip without much friction? If so then would a material made to have less friction upgrade performance? Would using grease on this washer help? Wouldn't  using drag washer 6-113 create more friction between the bridge and gear sleeve? What is the benefit of using the thicker 6-113 washer? Is it to take out the play in handle slop? I have added a 6-60 washer between the last metal washer and tension spring washer to reduce handle slop with good results. Lots of questions that I was thinking about. Thanks. 

Keta

#1
Replace it with a carbon fiber drag washer or Delrin.  CF gives you slightly more drag, Delrin gives you slightly smoother drag.
Hi, my name is Lee and I have a fishing gear problem.

I have all of the answers, yup, no, maybe.

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sdlehr

Quote from: captquint99 on December 29, 2018, 01:37:55 PM
I have a general question on the mechanics of the drag system. What is the purpose of the hard fiber spacer washer under the main gear? Is this washer there to provide space between the bridge and gear sleeve and made to slip without much friction?

Yes, it functions as a thrust bearing when you use a Delrin (or other smooth) washer. Some of the older manufacturers actually had a roller bearing in that position, I think it's my Pflueger 1419-3/4 that has one there....
Sid Lehr
Veterinarian, fishing enthusiast, custom rod builder, reel collector

Gfish

#3
To me, the original fiber washer is there cause you can't have metal moving against metal(gear sleeve rachet & bottom of main gear) and cause of it's rigidity it provides a stable thrust bearing-like function, as Sid said. A carbon fiber drag disc there, will increase your drag capacity slightly, as Lee stated, but to me a fat one there may not be as stable for the main gear under high-pressure drag function. Plus there's a possibility of the gear sleeve rachet tearing into the CF disc.

A solution to this would the aftermarket system(5+1 or 7+1 drag stacks) that employ all CF brake discs, a special gear sleeve(keyed all the way down to the rachet)and a below the gear keyed metal washer that sits on top of the rachet, with a thin CF on topa that.

I like to just replace the fiber washer with a better functioning delrin washer(lower coefficent of friction), but I don't know yet whether grease or oil improves things there. I do know that for me, I find alota salt water corrosion on the underside of Penn main gears now and then.
Fishing tackle is an art form and all fish caught on the right tackle are"Gfish"!

Tiddlerbasher

Delrin under gear washer and marine grease is now standard for me. Delrin is safe in a grease/oil environment ;) You could, of course, try a very thin roller thrust bearing (if you can find one), But it would need more maintenace (and cost more) than a delrin thrust washer. The 'extra drag' that a cf washer should provide is not worth the sacrifice of smoothness that delrin will provide.

basto

I thought all of the drag pressure was confined to inside the main gear, so why would you need a drag washer below the main gear?  Talking about the older gear sleeves here that were not keyed all the way to the bottom of the sleeve as the newer ones are.
DAM Quick 3001      SHIMANO Spedmaster 3   Jigging Master PE5n

handi2

The use of different materials in that area keeps changing. In the past most always used a carbon drag washer under the main gear instead of the stock fiber washer. I don't remember when that started but it was a long time ago.

It was thought that it would increase the drag pressure. I highly dought it does. It would have to be mechanicaly tested many times in different ways to come up with a result.

After the manufacture quit using the fiber washer they went to a plastic type washer. Then we started using a carbon drag washer. Now we are back to using a plastic (Delrin) washer.

OCD Reel Service & Repair
Gulf Breeze, FL

mo65

Quote from: basto on December 29, 2018, 08:14:56 PM
I thought all of the drag pressure was confined to inside the main gear, so why would you need a drag washer below the main gear? 

    Unfortunately this isn't so...which is why the thrust washer is so important. When you tighten the drag star, everything below it is squished against the gear sleeve AR ratchet. This includes not only all the washers inside the gear but the gear itself too. I've had good results with about all the variations if properly maintained. Some are better at certain requirements...so my reels aren't all using any one material.  8)
~YOU CAN TUNA GEETAR...BUT YOU CAN'T TUNA FEESH~


Alto Mare

Yup! The washer under the gear gets lots of pressure.
I like to use a Delrin washer there, the reason I chose a Delrin is that it won't get squished and still be slippery.
I'm a strong believer that the washer for under the gear should work as a bearing and not as an additional drag washer, this will help with the gear operating smother when under load.
A drag washer there would do the opposite and it will also heat up the gear more than the Delrin would during a long battle.
I've also used a roller bearing there, I had to shave the under side of the main gear to make it work.
The results were the same as the Delrin washer, so I thought it wasn't worth the effort and as Tidlerbasher has mentioned, maintenance would be an issue.

All my reels have a Delrin washer and it is the only washer I recommend for now.
Of course this is just my opinion, use what you're comfortable with on your reel.

Sal
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.

Dominick

Quote from: mo65 on December 29, 2018, 08:32:25 PM
When you tighten the drag star, everything below it is squished against the gear sleeve AR ratchet.

"Squished" I love these technical terms.   ::)  I agree with you Mo and Sal although I do not stock delrin washers.
Dominick
Leave the gun.  Take the cannolis.

There are two things I don't like about fishing.  Getting up early in the morning and boats.  The rest of it is fun.

Tiddlerbasher

for delrin I just stamp the size needed for the reel in hand, I don't keep a stash of them. I am now also using a very thin teflon washer under the ratchet (it should make things a little smoother when cranking - time will tell :-\)

jurelometer

#11
Quote from: basto on December 29, 2018, 08:14:56 PM
I thought all of the drag pressure was confined to inside the main gear, so why would you need a drag washer below the main gear?  Talking about the older gear sleeves here that were not keyed all the way to the bottom of the sleeve as the newer ones are.

The main gear needs a thrust bearing surface on both sides to ride on so that it does not wobble.  On a typical star drag reel, the clamping force from tightening the star pushes the drag stack against the main gear, which in turn is pushed against whatever is underneath the gear, providing both thrust bearing surfaces,  keeping the main gear aligned  with the pinion, and keeping all the drag surfaces aligned.   A viable floating drag stack would require  a much more complicated design.  The reel repair experts here can probably tell us exactly how the load gets transferred to the main gear for a given reel model.


Lots of past discussions on this site on the various tradeoffs for materials,  but I think it boils down to:

1.  Carbon fiber:  provides the most additional drag.  Can get damaged under high drag settings, damage varies by reel model

2.  Delrin/acetal:   Smoother drag, better bearing surface.  Downside is potential for creep/deformation over time when  stored with the drag tightened. Melting temp is on the low side (it starts to get pretty squishy around 250F),  but I don't remember seeing a real life failure report here.

3. Rulon/fiber reinforced PTFE:   Smoothest bearing surface of all.  Very little additional drag.   Same possible issues as Delrin regarding creep, but the operating temp is much higher

4.  Mechanical thrust bearing (rollers or balls):   Very smooth, but another un-shielded bearing introduces corrosion risk.  Usually difficult to impossible to add as an aftermarket replacement for a solid washer.

5. Stock phenolic resin :  Nothing wrong with these.  Usually very durable in terms of holding shape under load, and sufficient for heat resistance.  The folks that customize reels to support higher/smoother drag settings find that phenolic washers  can be  stickier than Delrin/Rulon.

6.  Stock Nylon:  can work in lightweight situations.  Creeps at fairly low  clamping loads.   absorbs water and swells. ( Derlin absorbs a tiny amount and Rulon is pretty much impervious).   Low melting point.   no real benefit  for aftermarket over Delrin or Rulon.

Dominick

There you go.  That is a good run down on the various appointments for under gear.  Thanks for that.  Dominick
Leave the gun.  Take the cannolis.

There are two things I don't like about fishing.  Getting up early in the morning and boats.  The rest of it is fun.

handi2

Ive never seen a problem with Delrin material. No deformation or creep. The reels I do are used with very tight drags on charter boats. They get abused daily. When they come back many have problems but the drag system is cleaned and reused. 4 seasons now on one set of Carbontex drag washers and Delrin washers. Approximately 400 reels.
OCD Reel Service & Repair
Gulf Breeze, FL

JoseCuervo

#14
A great and very informative thread!

Any idea what a current production 4-155 (as an example only, anything similar as well) is made out of?

Rob