Collecting B-Grade Spinning Reels

Started by mo65, April 20, 2019, 06:14:22 PM

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Paul Roberts

#285
Fun topic. I don't have a true defn, but what separates A,B,C grades in my mind would be performance and durability. The mark of a lower quality reel can be heard and felt after a reel has been put through -or beyond- its paces over time. But the more I learn the more I've come to respect and enjoy manufacturers attempts at making reels that perform and, at the same time, are affordable. The lack of bearings, lack of bushings, appropriate metals for durability, and overall gear package design all factor in. Good design and adequate bearings/bushings can help keep lower quality metals from wear. And staying within a given design's limits is important. Some types of fish and fishing basically require high quality tackle.

When sanity returns here I'll join in and share some favorite -and newly acquired- "B's" (You guys are a bad influence!) 😄

Paul Roberts

#286
OK... Sanity has returned! Finally able to sit down at my (makeshift) bench, and meditate on the mysterious inner workings of some fishing reels.

First "B-grade" spinning reel:
Compac SL series: 110 (light ~6lb), 111 (med ~10lb):

These SL-series reels could just qualify as "B-grade" simply by being Japanese reels from the 1970's. Back then, as I remember it, "Made in Japan" was not a compliment. That has changed over time of course and it seemed that lower end reels then started coming from Korea (80's), then from China (90's).

I bought these Compac's following my curiosity for gear train designs, and they smacked of an Omori design —or an Omori copy? They sport the compact, "efficient", helical (spiral), hypoid (off-center) gear train that seems to have swept the industry since the 70's. Piquing my interest has been some chatter that these SL series reels are of better quality than other Compac reels. Could this line of inexpensive reels be worth pursuing? Now, I am an angler, more than collector, so I'm mostly interested in reels that can perform on the water.

So, let's dig in and see what we've actually got here. Or what I can get out of them.

The 110 was found to be well used. The 111 was nearly new, in the box, with papers. It's helpful to have one in such EC in assessing the quality of a reel design.

The first thing is to assess how much a reel has been used, and how well it might have been taken care of. This is especially important with lower quality reels as they are more apt to gather wear. Turning the handle rarely offers much about the condition of the internals, beyond their containing old dry grease. Few old reels I pick up have been serviced, let alone treated to a complete job.

Bails are apt to have trouble and I'd bet more spinning reels are discarded due to bail issues than any other. Often they are easy to get back into working order. Broken bail springs can be bought, or close-enough's modified. Bail wires may need to be bent back to shape. This SL110's bail was found to be sitting askew, the culprit being a worn nylon bail bumper. In fact, it may have been a sloppy replacement, owing to the apparent dried epoxy around it. I'll have to drill it out and replace it with a piece of weedcutter line, or other such material. This in itself suggests the reel has been well used.

Opened up, the reel showed dry, gummy, likely factory, grease. And here is what I was interested in: How this reel was put together and the quality of materials used. Both these SL's were virtually the same in terms of design and materials, both being destined for L and M freshwater use, respectively. They sport a helical hypoid gear train. Shaft oscillation was accomplished via a grooved cast-metal oscillation block against a raised post or button on the back-side of the also cast-metal main gear. Metal quality appeared poor, possibly a high zinc content alloy?

These SL's do not have a pre-pinion AR that is common now, instead relying on a ratchet —a set of large gear teeth— on the back-side of that cast-metal main gear. The AR being reliant on the good nature -metal quality- of the main gear. Such an AR is likely fine for a light power reel like the 110, and for most requirements the 111 was targeted to. Pushing the 111 above 12lb line, very often, perhaps might cause problems? At least when using the reel's drag. I'm a back-reeler so AR durability will never be an issue for me. The AR is there simply to keep tension on the line/lure when not being fished.

The main shaft is chromed, but apparently over a soft enough metal (likely brass) that I found the shaft on the 110 bent slightly where the screw that holds the oscillation block is drilled. I think I can see how that happened. The block is screwed into the shaft, and the main gear, affixed to the crank handle, puts that cranking power down onto the shaft via the oscillation block right where the shaft is weakest -where the hole was drilled through. Whoops! Design, or materials, change needed there. I popped the shaft back straight with a small hammer and a piece of leather.

The handle shaft of the main gear is supported by a sleeve bearing (brass?). The main shaft is supported by the rotor ball-bearing, the pinion shaft, the oscillation block, and at the distal end via a bearing block of cast metal, integral with the reel body. This is all well and good but, again, the hole in the shaft compromises the shaft.

The single ball-bearing, beneath the rotor, was a poor fit between the ball bearing itself and the reel body housing, the bearing being a bit loose in the housing, creating some play in the reel's shaft, rotor, and spool. A replacement bearing would be best, but I made a quick fix by fashioning a shim from the finger of a Nitrile glove. It took up the space, noticeably tightening up that play. I had to do this in both reels.

I burnished the important metal-to-metal contact areas including reaming the inner bearing surfaces with 0000 steel wool in a cordless drill, as is recommended by Fred (foakes). Lubing was done with Super Lube grease and oil. Final step is to use the reels as fidget spinners, spinning them to distribute lubes and "set" or "mesh (?) the gears. For some reason this seems to help smooth things out. The more worn 110 is the noisier of the two, with a bit of gear-buzzing going on. New ball-bearings, and creative shimming in the right places might help both reels. Any and all advice is welcome!

In the end, or in their native form, these SL series Compac's are not terribly impressive. Sadly, they feel... cheap. Both suffer from excessive play in the components, resulting in loose somewhat noisy (clunky sounding) reels. At this stage in the game, I'll likely be looking further for fishing companions.

The last image shows the Omori Shaky Sigma (035) and the Compac SL (110). Two reels of essentially the same (hypoid) design but two very different animals on the inside.

philaroman

#287
Quote from: Paul Roberts on September 20, 2021, 02:33:26 AM
The last image shows the Omori Shaky Sigma (035) and the Compac SL (110). Two reels of essentially the same design but two very different animals on the inside.


not reely same design...  Sigma is much more modern
look up green Shakes 2200-II, AND gold Compac Atlas III, AND gold Diamond Micro, AND a Pflueger (grey? model?)
(all same Omori in different colors, not sure how the model-size increments work for each re-brand)
above L/UL would be closer to SL 110 in design/age, but better-made
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30254.0
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=22330.0
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=32404.0

Gfish

They do look cheaply made, but functional. If you don't wanna fish 'em, you could give 'em to a kid.
Fishing tackle is an art form and all fish caught on the right tackle are"Gfish"!

Paul Roberts

#289
Thanks philaroman. The second post talks about shimming issues, which could help tighten things up in this reel too. Not entirely confident but worth playing with.

Agree that the Sigma's are a newer design, at least in having gone to an oscillation arm and pin, and pinion AR. My 80's Daiwa's use those too. All are hypoid gear trains though, rather than in-line bevel or worm gears. It seems hypoid has been the gear train of most modern (or at least Asia produced) reels since the 70's. I've been curious about the early hypoids. And the oscillation block reels seem to have a following. I thought I'd try some and started with these Compac SL's, in part bc they have a pretty compact gear package, are nice looking, and are inexpensive. Would be nice to be able to tighten and quiet them up. At this point, I'd put these SL's in the low "B" range. The Sigma's a low "A" range.

Gfish, they are functional. They spin like tops -I suppose that is what "frictionless" meant on the box- but are loose feeling with too much noise. Could be an interesting project to trick them out. In their present form, I'm not so sure most kids nowadays would be impressed. Even the cheapest reels now are at very least smooth and quiet.

Gfish

Ok. Not a lot(enough?)of tricking-out that goes on with spinners relative to conventionals and baitcasters. Should be fun! 
Fishing tackle is an art form and all fish caught on the right tackle are"Gfish"!

Wompus Cat

Noise is the Bearing . Looseness is the Cheap arse Pewter Gear and the only way to get the slack out is to replace it or fill the teeth with some peaunut butter . If the Pinion gear were tapered you could change the Depth with shims to take some slack out but with a plain straight gear no cigar .
Good work getting to where you are with those  ;D
If a Grass Hopper Carried a Shotgun then the Birds wouldn't MESS with Him

happyhooker

Thank you, Paul, for a nice write-up on those Compaqs.  If I could see write-ups like those on a bunch more of the spinning reels talked about on this site, I'd be putting in a lot more PC (personal computer) time (and enjoying every minute of it).

Frank

foakes

Shakes Sigmas are good reels —

In my personal opinion — they are a strong B+ reel.

I have found that the difference between a "B" grade spinning reel and a "A" grade is a couple of basic things —

The gearing on an "A" grade reel is typically constructed of tough and superior materials such as steel, bronze, brass — which are well supported at any possible stress point with a ball-bearing or a bushing-bearing, or a combination of the two.  This enables a reel to fish far above its intended target range — with no permanent damage to the internals.  When a "B" grade reel is quickly maxed out — gear and internal damage often occur — which are not repairable without major expense and finding obsolete parts — which is generally not worth the effort.  Oftentimes, these designs include the much more efficient steel worm and bronze main gear setups. 

Second is a metal casing with tight tolerances, good springs, good screws, threaded attachment points, machined components, and a minimum of plastics — particularly on wear parts.

"A" reels will last for a couple of generations of steady fishing under all conditions, if serviced on a sensible schedule.

"B" reels will also fish very well, if serviced properly and regularly — until that oversized fish we all hope to catch someday — takes the bait.  Then the reel is ruined and sometimes the fish is also lost.

Best,

Fred
The Official, Un-Authorized Service and Restoration Center for quality vintage spinning reels.

D-A-M Quick, Penn, Mitchell, and ABU/Zebco Cardinals

--------

The first rule of fishing is to fish where the fish are. The second rule of fishing is to never forget the first rule.

"Enjoy the little things in Life — For someday, you may look back — and realize that they were the big things"
                                                     Fred O.

Midway Tommy

#294
Well, other than a weak sentimental moment regarding the Mitchell 304, when an unmentioned part of my rear end was talking when my mouth/mind knew better, in my NSHO, for any open face spinner to be considered an "A" grade reel it has to at least be worm gear driven. "A", "B" & "C" grade quality variations derive from there, pinion & main gear and bearing support, etc. In some instances an oilite may even be better than a ball bearing. When I think about the time and money spent fishing I wouldn't even consider using a non-worm gear driven reel.
Love those open face spinning reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco Cardinals)

Tommy D (ORCA), NE



Favorite Activity? ............... In our boat fishing
RELAXING w/ MY BEST FRIEND (My wife Bonnie)

dlrider

I think the non-ball bearings are good if not equal especially if they are longer to help with "wobble" tolerance (I don't know the engineering terms).  Sometimes it is just better to keep it simple -- adding ball bearings can sometimes become another point of failure, e.g. Penn 716Z with the single ball bearing, the one part I've replaced.

foakes

Quote from: Midway Tommy on September 20, 2021, 09:48:32 PM
Well, other than a weak sentimental moment regarding the Mitchell 304, when an unmentioned part of my rear end was talking when my mouth/mind knew better, in my NSHO, for any open face spinner to be considered an "A" grade reel it has to at least be worm gear drivemyn. "A", "B" & "C" grade quality variations derive from there, pinion & main gear and bearing support, etc. In some instances an onlite may even be better than a ball bearing. When I think about the time and money spent fishing I wouldn't even consider sider using a non-worm gear driven reel.

Got to agree, Tommy —

Anyone who works on reels for a long time — and also uses them — will tell us the same thing.

While I claim to fish all types of spinning reels — and also have them readily available — I cannot remember the last time I fished anything besides a DAM Quick, Cardinal, or Penn reel.

I might have fished a Gold Daiwa Mini-Mite just for fun at Pryor Lake, in the Sierras at 8400' a couple of years ago — however I had a Cardinal 3 in my day-pack, as a back-up...😄😄😄

Tupperware, plastic, and graphite reels are for folks who don't care if their reels only last a few years. 

The same goes for soft alloy or pot metal gears.  Same goes for most Asian off brands — and even most of the major brands.

The marketing departments of most Asian reel manufacturers set their advertising and their pricing — by now many bearings their reels have. What they are not saying — is that the 10 to 13 bearings are needed — because this is the only structural and functional support the drive train gets with a plastic or cheap shiny reel.

While I have caught and landed some nice fish on quality reels — I have yet to catch the fish of a lifetime (mostly because my lifetime is not over yet!)

So, while I cannot prepare for everything when fishing — I can certainly use tackle that will generally stand the test of time and capability when landing large fish — routinely, with no drama or excuses.

And these old quality reels will not break the bank — they are some of the best values found anywhere in the angling world.

IMO...

Best, Fred
The Official, Un-Authorized Service and Restoration Center for quality vintage spinning reels.

D-A-M Quick, Penn, Mitchell, and ABU/Zebco Cardinals

--------

The first rule of fishing is to fish where the fish are. The second rule of fishing is to never forget the first rule.

"Enjoy the little things in Life — For someday, you may look back — and realize that they were the big things"
                                                     Fred O.

Paul Roberts

#297
Gfish, True, esp with a reel as simple as these SL's. It's more about plugging holes in the design with the materials given. And it is fun, provided the end result is worth the time and effort. There's always value in learning by DIY regardless.

Henry, I think you are spot on. The best attempts at making this reel... not make me cringe while fishing with it, are: a new quality bearing (and one that fits!); heavier grease (I'm using peanut butter now, according to NLGI. Maybe vegetable shortening might be better? ;D; And some shimming.

Not confident these particular reels are worth the time, but I'm likely to play around a bit further just to see if I can patch those holes left by Compac, and learn a few things along the way. I did go back in and pack the bearing with NLGI-2 grease. Prior I'd used just Super Lube oil, a pretty viscous oil. From my conventional reel experience, my normal approach is to oil bearings. But this is less critical for spinning reels and with any wear, grease is apt to help. The grease packing did help with the "rotor hiss" in my Compac's, but there is another larger noise issue I'll be trying to address: The main shaft has fore and aft play that, with the spool on one end, makes an annoying clicking sound, that then resonates within the rotor. That's a deal-breaker at present.

Thanks for the kind words, Frank! It is nice to be able to share our passions. Also, I see this (and some other) sites as reference archives. This site is a particularly good one. With the archival nature of such sites in mind, I often revisit my posts to edit for accuracy, clarity, and because I simply find writing an enjoyable challenge. Sometimes I've edited things years later!

Fred, I agree. I've been tossing this A, B, ... rating system idea around, and simply haven't experienced enough reels to be terribly accurate there. After slipping the Sigma's into the A category, I started thinking, "Then there must be a AA and even a AAA!" Your reasoning is sound. I agree the Sigma's would be a high B. Thanks for the clarity.

Tom, I hear you. And I know your well earned preferences. Although I was unaware of your weakness for the Mitchell 304 :). Such things (the Luxor in my case) have had me wondering about gear packages: Straight or helical bevel vs hypoid vs the venerable worm gear. I've bought a number of each now and will be delving into them as time allows. As usual, I just want to know about stuff.

dlrider, yes it seems that ball bearings can be a weak spot, esp the cheaper ones. Case in point: I took down the NOS Sigma 035 in the above photo, to compare with the Compac. The Sigma is much tighter feeling but also has some "rotor hiss". I found the bearing inner ring was so loose the entire train could move! Put back together, the train feels pretty tight, but that much play in the bearing cannot be good. Replacing that bearing for a better quality one would take this reel up a notch in the rating game. (But not into the A range). The Compac reels do have one rather impressive (long) sleeve support bearing in the handle post. Now if they'd only continued that thinking in the rest of the reel.

Thanks for the thoughtful conversation folks.

foakes

#298
Good comments, Paul —

Well reasoned and explained — Thank You for your clarity.

One easy way for me to understand the difference between a worm-drive system and a more typical and less expensive system — is to look at master carpenters and framers.

We don't see any of them with a Black and Decker Skill Saw — or a Sears Skill saw.  The pros all have worm-drive Skil Saws.

The difference in power, strength, performance, and longevity — is not even a question.

They can be dropped from a rafter, used in the rain, are simple and mechanically accurate to set depth of cut and angles — and will last 10 times as long as a B & D.  For guys whose skill and reputation hangs on their accuracy, skill, and ability to frame a house including plates and rafters in a day or two — these old worm-drive Skill 77's are all they will use.  They weigh twice as much as a plastic bodied saw — and the materials used are nearly bullet-proof.

I have only had two in my life — first was about 40 years ago — and I would still have it if it wasn't stolen from a job-site in the middle of the day — along with an air compressor.  My second one I still have — it has a lot of miles on it — and all it has ever needed was some grease into the port every couple of years.  The cord is finally wearing out — easy to replace.  It is 25 years old.

A fishing reel is just a tool — and the better the tool — the cheaper the overall cost becomes, over the years.

Best, Fred
The Official, Un-Authorized Service and Restoration Center for quality vintage spinning reels.

D-A-M Quick, Penn, Mitchell, and ABU/Zebco Cardinals

--------

The first rule of fishing is to fish where the fish are. The second rule of fishing is to never forget the first rule.

"Enjoy the little things in Life — For someday, you may look back — and realize that they were the big things"
                                                     Fred O.

Paul Roberts

#299
For academic purposes I went back to work on the SL 111 in an attempt to quiet the noise this cheap reel produces. Nice, once again, that I have an essentially new reel to start with, which tells me something about the native components of this reel model.

There are a variety of noises that reels may produce. The most common culprits seem to be: the ball bearings, esp the one supporting the rotor; the gears (how well they mesh); the other support bearings; and the main shaft movement tolerances. In fact, much unwanted noise seems to boil down to poor tolerances between moving parts.

This nearly new 111 hissed, ground (mildly), rattled a bit when shaken about, and clunked when reeled. Together these were intolerable, at least for someone who has better choices available. But I wondered if I could actually tame such a beast, retaining original parts. In the end, the reel would not be worth an attempt at upgrading parts.

Here's how I attacked each noise:
-The 'hiss', I have always called "rotor hiss" —I guess bc the rotor tends to amplify the sound— is the sound a cheap or worn/corroded bearing makes -either ball bearing or bushing. I dealt with the cheap ball bearing in these reels by packing them with grease, as opposed to oiling with a viscous oil.

-The 'grinding' is gear noise, due to how well, or poorly, the gear teeth mesh. If you press a reel's tail against your ear you can hear any gear set, even those glass smooth ABU worm gear ones. But they should not be heard, very loudly anyway, much further away. There wasn't much I could do with the gear noise in these Compac's. The gears are just too loose. Extra grease was all I could think to do here, hence Wompus Cat's "peanut butter" suggestion.

-The rattling and clunking I spent some time trying to locate. The majority of it turned out to be emanating from the main shaft, and were amplified in the rotor cup. These cheap sounds were intolerable. I decided the best I could do was attempt to hide them! I eventually traced the sounds to the oscillation block. It was clunking back and forth between the pinion and the aft block bushing. So I made a pair of cushions from heat-shrink tubing. They had to be narrow so that their impact on line lay would be as minimal as possible. Hey, I didn't say I was going to fish these reels, just hide the sounds of cheapness and poor tolerances. But... hey, you never know, so I exchanged the shim/washer beneath the rotor for a thicker felt one to pick the spool back up a bit... just in case.

This bit of BS helped but did not get rid of the main 'clunk', that came around at every fore and aft movement of the main shaft. The only thing left was the AR cog and groove, and this turned out to be it. I affixed a heat-shrink shim to that little button/cog and... that hollow 'clunk' went away! How cool is that?! The shim did not stay in place exactly, after opening it back up to see, but it stayed in the groove and continued doing its job. How long? Who knows? Hey, this cheap reel got a cheap fix. I effectively hid the most egregious sounds of cheapness. I would likely need to find a more durable shim but I'll call this effort a success.

What's left are the hiss from a cheap ball bearing (remember its essential new) and the loose gear mesh noise. I dare say it sounds 'fishable' now. I could join a line of casters in the dim light of dawn and not cause wrinkled noses and curled lips from my compatriots. That said, from what I've seen, I could now see dropping these Compac SL-series reels into the "C-grade" category.