Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?

Started by JasonGotaProblem, February 17, 2021, 06:52:17 PM

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steelfish

Quote from: Midway Tommy on February 21, 2021, 04:07:00 AM
........ "There is a reason they put erasers on pencils", "I seldom learned much when I did something right but I learned a helluva lot when I did something wrong",......

those totally apply to rod building.


I had to do each of those olive branches like 6-8 times until passing my QC level of OCD
The Baja Guy

JasonGotaProblem

Dollar store super glue it is then.

While I'm kidding about using it for this build where quality or at least something approaching quality is the goal, I totally have used super glue in the past on a guide wrap. Looks like crap, but still fishes.

I'm glad my post stirred up some debate. There's lots of opinions and options out there. I try to learn as much as I can before diving in. But the process has begun.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

Jeri

Just imagine what it was like for those starting before the internet, web, youtube, etc............ :(

If you were lucky, you might find a book to start you off, but never access to the depth and variety of experience you can now access. The problem now is sorting through the diversity.

I still have my very first rod build, it has a special place in my rod store, but seldom sees light of day, and certainly wouldn't show it around in my shop.

Get stuck in, make mistakes, learn to be prepared to undo work, and be self critical; it is the only way forward.

oldmanjoe

 ??? ???      I think most of us here lived the time before internet  8)           That`s what grand pa`s and uncles were for , always had something to teach yer ....
     I still have the text books that were written in the 30s - 50s  , learned the basic .    Today it is just embellishing the basics  ::)
Grandpa`s words of wisdom......Joey that thing between your shoulders is not a hat rack.....    use it.....
A mind is like a parachute, it only work`s  when it is open.......
The power of Observation   , It`s all about the Details ..
 Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.   Alto Mare

SteveL

Quote from: Midway Tommy on February 21, 2021, 04:07:00 AM
Are you totally confused yet, Jason?  ;D  Just jump in with both feet. There's enough rod building information out there on the interwebby to get you through the process and a decent rod on your first build.    ;) My dad had a couple of sayings that have stuck with me since I was a kid.  ???  "Any job worth doing is worth doing well", "There is a reason they put erasers on pencils", "I seldom learned much when I did something right but I learned a helluva lot when I did something wrong", and, "The difference between a wood butcher and a carpenter is that a carpenter knows how to fix his screwups." Dive right in, the worst thing that can happen is your first rod turns out crappy. You'll learn a few things and your next one, or two, or three will be quite a bit better.   8)

Paul Thorn composed a song exclusively of things his mother said:


thrasher

#35
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 21, 2021, 04:38:22 AM
Dollar store super glue it is then.

While I'm kidding about using it for this build where quality or at least something approaching quality is the goal, I totally have used super glue in the past on a guide wrap. Looks like crap, but still fishes.

I'm glad my post stirred up some debate. There's lots of opinions and options out there. I try to learn as much as I can before diving in. But the process has begun.
Some guys that turn pens out of wood blanks use super glue as a finish. A few guys over at rodbuilding.org were making wooden reel seats for fly rods using that finish as well. When its sanded down to a polish it looks great, just a lot of work and you need a lathe/power wrapper. I wrapped an entire blank with thread then did the super glue process as my rod coating before wrapping my guides. Gave the rod away and I wish to this day that I hadn't, would have liked to see how the finish held up. I never fished it but I'm guessing it would have cracked when flexed, it was more of a see if I can thing.

JasonGotaProblem

My build is getting punted down the road to likely next weekend. I'm not satisfied with the guide layout using the kit I bought so I ordered more. If I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do the best job I can possibly do, even knowing that being my first build it'll probably still suck. But dang it if I cant confidently say that I gave it my best shot im not even gonna try.

So this will require some patience. That's ok. I've got other rods to fish this week. I can at least attach the seat, cork, and tip while I wait.

It's supposedly a 6-12# blank. So doing a 3# deadlift with the weight attached to the tip is a fair way to test the blank before I invest my time in it, right? Thoughts?
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

Newell Nut

Do not do that test weight until after the rod is built. Doing it as you stated may break your rod.

Dwight

Rivverrat

Quote from: Jeri on February 21, 2021, 05:50:01 AM
Just imagine what it was like for those starting before the internet, web, youtube, etc............ :(

.... Get stuck in, make mistakes, learn to be prepared to undo work, and be self critical; it is the only way forward.


    Wise words that apply well to most any ones life ... Jeff

JasonGotaProblem

How should I more safely test it then? I just don't wanna dedicate the time to building it if there's some structural shortcoming that makes it break on the first big fish.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

Rivverrat

Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 21, 2021, 09:13:42 PM
How should I more safely test it then? I just don't wanna dedicate the time to building it if there's some structural shortcoming that makes it break on the first big fish.

  You can bend most any rod or blank & listen. You should be able to bend a bare blank through out its range & hear nothing but silence. Any creaking or popping noise or really any noise, makes the blank in my opinion suspect & questionable to build on... Jeff

jurelometer

Quote from: Rivverrat on February 21, 2021, 09:20:16 PM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 21, 2021, 09:13:42 PM
How should I more safely test it then? I just don't wanna dedicate the time to building it if there's some structural shortcoming that makes it break on the first big fish.

  You can bend most any rod or blank & listen. You should be able to bend a bare blank through out its range & hear nothing but silence. Any creaking or popping noise or really any noise, makes the blank in my opinion suspect & questionable to build on... Jeff

A rod or blank is more likely to break if it starts to bend back towards itself.  Any bend past 90 degrees  increasingly concentrates the load toward the apex of the tightening curve near the tip without gaining any improvement  in casting or lifting capacity.

Rather than trying to lift a specific amount of weight, you should test to find out how much force it takes to deflect the rod to 90 degrees when supported at the reel seat.     

If you just try to lift a weight off the floor, bend the rod into a U and and bust it,  you most likely chose too heavy a weight for the blank, and wasted a good blank.

The barbel lifting test might be useful for testing something like a tuna rail rod.  For a light rod, a better test of durability is how far past 90 you can go (and repeat) without breaking, but this is a destructive test.  Just about everybody ends up high sticking now and then.  If I was buying a blank in a shop, I would causally ask how far the blank can safely be bent and ask for a demo (while standing at a safe distance  :) ).

Most of us believe that if you mount guides on a progressive action blank, it will allow the tip to bend out of the way, and better support the load along the stronger butt section.   I have not found a scientific explanation for why this would be true, but have seen how guide placement affects rod loading capability at a given deflection angle, so I am among the believers for now.

I haven't broken an unwrapped blank doing a 90 degree deflection test, but I just do a couple rods per year.   How far you can safely go past 90 on a wrapped or unwrapped blank is a function of the individual blank design and construction.  Some high end blanks can be on the fragile side.   Thin walked blanks oval and collapse more easily, but are lighter and often have a crisper action.  Durability vs.  performance is often a tradeoff. My fancier old "high modulus" graphite  fly rods cause me to break into a sweat at 91 degrees, but I have an Ugly Stik conventional that I would happily give a full U bend after using the tip to stop a ceiling fan.

-J

steelfish

Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 21, 2021, 09:13:42 PM
How should I more safely test it then? I just don't wanna dedicate the time to building it if there's some structural shortcoming that makes it break on the first big fish.

Jason, I have built many rods and everytime I get that same sensation on how to know if the rod have or not an structural damage and will break on the 1st or 2nd good fish but well, there are some "light" tests as our guy Jurelometer just said, please read this thread were I post that I broke my 1st blank doing those same kind of "destructive tests" LOL, I got a lot of good tips and recomendations from the more seasoned rodbuilders here, so it worth to grab a cup of coffee and read the entire thread.

https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=32120.0

What I do know is the install the grips and reelseat on the blank and install the guides on the blank with masking tape and perform some light tests on light rods, the more hight count on graphite the less weight to use on you "destructive test" or static test, IM6 graphite is less prone to break and composite rods have lot of glass on the tip so, they seems to pass those static test with no problem, on S-Glass or E-Glass or solid glass blanks you can do your lift or static test between the line test on the blank you will never break it.

I have a chinesse telescopic rod that looks and feels pretty cheap which has the butt diameter and blank length similar to an inshore rod, that telescopic rod could lift 10# with no problem I was surprised, I though it was going to break with 3#, then I used 5# and lifted that easily I actually bounced that weight 3 times, finally use 10# and I think that the max of the rod becuase it actually lifted that but the rod was in a comple U-from, while a no-name swimbait blank I bought got broken trying to lift 8#, maybe If I had kept the angle of the tip at no more than 90* on that swimbait rod (maybe using a ladder) pretty sure it didnt have broken, and just to test that theory I will build a fishing rod on the same blank (I bought two similar swimbait blanks they were on special price) and fish it like hell trying to break it actually fishing with it, I will be happy to break it fighting a fish without going crazy like trying to bounce a Yellowtail or a big heavy spanish mack to the boat.
The Baja Guy

Midway Tommy

Quote from: oldmanjoe on February 21, 2021, 06:23:43 AM
??? ???      I think most of us here lived the time before internet  8)           That`s what grand pa`s and uncles were for , always had something to teach yer ....
     I still have the text books that were written in the 30s - 50s  , learned the basic .    Today it is just embellishing the basics  ::)

There was no internet when I did my first builds. I bought a couple of complete kits from Cabela's. The kits had instructional books included. I also bought a couple separate G Loomis blanks, handles, Fuji SIC guides, etc. and dove in. I learned pretty quickly that I didn't like double footed spinning guides, Hardloy rings, 5 minute fast set epoxy on handles & Cabela's two part rod finish. I didn't have a drying motor so there was a lot of manual rotating after guide finish, then shaving, sanding & additional coats of finish. I gave one rod to my dad & he uses it a lot. I still use the others regularly. I'd rewrap the two with Hardloys if they weren't double foots. That combination is too dang bulky & heavy for my liking.

Moral of the story, I guess, is pay attention to things you like & don't like on your first couple of builds and use some common sense about how to do things a little better the next time. For me, the most important thing I learned on the first couple was invest a few bucks in a slow rotation drying motor. I think my first motor was $10 and I made the stands myself. It made all the difference in the world in the looks of my next builds. I used it later to cleanup the look of the first few builds. They look pretty darn good now.       
Love those open face spinning reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco Cardinals)

Tommy D (ORCA), NE



Favorite Activity? ............... In our boat fishing
RELAXING w/ MY BEST FRIEND (My wife Bonnie)

oc1

#44
I'm used to building long light rods; either fly or salmon/steelhead blanks.  I lay the blank on the floor, wedge the last 16" of the butt section between two heavy chair legs and tie a string to the tip.  Then, pull the string at a 90 degree angle to the butt.  The tip section will point to 90 degrees with little load.  As the string is pulled the portion pointing 90* becomes longer and the straight part of the butt section becomes shorter.  It is not parabolic.  I stop when there is noticeable flex at the fulcrum (16" from the butt where the reel will be mounted).  A scale tied to the string will only be registering about three to four pounds with a 10 foot rod rated 6 wt fly or 3/8 ounce maximum lure weight salmon/steelhead.

With the string tied off I lay out a progressive guide spacing that pleases my eye and somewhat limits line rubbing on the blank.  It's usually only six or seven guides so the line will rub on the blank.  It's optimized more to casting and light weight rather than fighting a fish.