KR concept vs new concept questions, and perhaps an interesting test

[Jeri]

I can't understand anything after 1:30.  The take-away seems to be that you need to buy 21 guides for each rod and it would be really cool to have a high-speed video camera.  Thank you Fuji.

I have a lot of trouble watching for rod slap in the middle of a cast and never found a good way to do it.  Do you think you could dust the rod with talcum powder before the cast to show where the line is slapping it?

"Ring size, and being a subject of much debate", as evidenced right here, sure rang a bell with me. It's an interesting study but I wish they would give some specifics about the improvements in casting distance & accuracy. It doesn't make much sense to me to add 6 or 8 guides, including the added weight, to gain 10 feet in distance. 

A very interesting and valid question, re what does it achieve?

That unfortunately is something that is exceptionally difficult to answer, except to say that 'It is worth a try'.

The scheme was originally designed for shorter spinning rods, and certainly not massive length heavy weight surf rods. However, I had a period of time, when I broke my hip, that thinking and smaller projects were all that were available - test casting new ideas was out of the question with a pair of crutches.

In asking the question of Fuji, the answer came back - why not try it, so we did and the results were impressive,  good friend did the test casting, and with heart in mouth that those tiny single leg guides would all be ripped off first cast was certainly there. It didn't, and side by side comparisons with the same blank built to previous standard were amazing.

Perhaps the single biggest element was that we 'found' power, which is the wrong expression, as the power was always there, just masked by previous builds with double leg guides, especially in the top third of the rod. Subsequent builds and developments with the scheme, we have even taken those original size 10 guides down to size 6 in some cases, but still using the same 35lb braid and 75lb knotted braid casting leader, and still not a single guide ripped off the blank. The next 2 big things that we noticed were, the ease of casting to achieve distances and the near silence of the whole system when casting the braid through some serious power casting. Comparing this to some factory built models of same blank using the older idea of Cone of Flight (progressively smaller guides - starting with a big guide), even built with modern Fuji KW guides - the factory schemes were more difficult yo cast and significantly more noisy.

So, in answering the question, there may be more distance, greater ease in casting and perhaps less noise. It is worth a try.

[jurelometer]

I can't understand anything after 1:30.  The take-away seems to be that you need to buy 21 guides for each rod and it would be really cool to have a high-speed video camera.  Thank you Fuji.

I have a lot of trouble watching for rod slap in the middle of a cast and never found a good way to do it.  Do you think you could dust the rod with talcum powder before the cast to show where the line is slapping it?

"Ring size, and being a subject of much debate", as evidenced right here, sure rang a bell with me. It's an interesting study but I wish they would give some specifics about the improvements in casting distance & accuracy. It doesn't make much sense to me to add 6 or 8 guides, including the added weight, to gain 10 feet in distance.  

A very interesting and valid question, re what does it achieve?

That unfortunately is something that is exceptionally difficult to answer, except to say that 'It is worth a try'.

The scheme was originally designed for shorter spinning rods, and certainly not massive length heavy weight surf rods. However, I had a period of time, when I broke my hip, that thinking and smaller projects were all that were available - test casting new ideas was out of the question with a pair of crutches.

In asking the question of Fuji, the answer came back - why not try it, so we did and the results were impressive,  good friend did the test casting, and with heart in mouth that those tiny single leg guides would all be ripped off first cast was certainly there. It didn't, and side by side comparisons with the same blank built to previous standard were amazing.

Perhaps the single biggest element was that we 'found' power, which is the wrong expression, as the power was always there, just masked by previous builds with double leg guides, especially in the top third of the rod. Subsequent builds and developments with the scheme, we have even taken those original size 10 guides down to size 6 in some cases, but still using the same 35lb braid and 75lb knotted braid casting leader, and still not a single guide ripped off the blank. The next 2 big things that we noticed were, the ease of casting to achieve distances and the near silence of the whole system when casting the braid through some serious power casting. Comparing this to some factory built models of same blank using the older idea of Cone of Flight (progressively smaller guides - starting with a big guide), even built with modern Fuji KW guides - the factory schemes were more difficult yo cast and significantly more noisy.

So, in answering the question, there may be more distance, greater ease in casting and perhaps less noise. It is worth a try.

I think this is why more/smaller runners could theoretically help:

Smaller low profile frames/rings (especially on the bottom side of the blank) means that the path of the line is closer to the loaded  blank, and therefore following the curve of the blank more accurately.    Smaller means lighter, so the small single foot guides can allow you to add a guide or two extra without adding weight or compromising flex.  More guides means that the  path of the line can more accurately follow the natural bend of the blank.   This can affect the loading phase of the cast.

Once the cast is released:  the closer the guides are together (and the smaller the rings),  the less amplitude of any waves in the line forming between the guides.    Remember from earlier in this thread that  the impact force of the line whacking the frames and rings, and to a lesser extent the blank is what is the rod is contributing to energy being robbed from the cast. The larger the wave, the greater the whacking. Friction on the rings is a much smaller factor.  If you have optimized the spacing and are still getting some waves forming, an extra guide or two might help.  

How much it will help  going from a size 7 standard runner guide to a size 5 single foot low profile and adding an extra guide or two is going to vary for each blank and layout (and how hard you are casting).  It may not  be a huge difference for some rods.  I would not be surprised if a long soft blank like the old fiberglass that Steve favors would be more forgiving than a modern faster taper casting blank that might store more energy if you can manage to fully load the blank as designed.

Selling an extra guide or to per blank is also a bonus for Fuji

-J

[JasonGotaProblem]

There's a 13' daiwa sealine rod for sale semi locally semi cheap. If I can get my hands on it I may do a a full strip down and try a Jeri style build. In fact I really want to now. I already got the guides.

[Jeri]

There's a 13' daiwa sealine rod for sale semi locally semi cheap. If I can get my hands on it I may do a a full strip down and try a Jeri style build. In fact I really want to now. I already got the guides.

You will have to learn to release the line with your left hand, if you are going to put the reel down the bottom............... 

[JasonGotaProblem]

There's a 13' daiwa sealine rod for sale semi locally semi cheap. If I can get my hands on it I may do a a full strip down and try a Jeri style build. In fact I really want to now. I already got the guides.

You will have to learn to release the line with your left hand, if you are going to put the reel down the bottom............... 

I'm not that old of a dog yet. I can still learn new tricks. Plus I'm actually left handed, I just fish righty.

Also if I'm not throwing super heavy weight that would require my hands further apart, couldn't I just cast it like a normal rod?

[Jeri]

There's a 13' daiwa sealine rod for sale semi locally semi cheap. If I can get my hands on it I may do a a full strip down and try a Jeri style build. In fact I really want to now. I already got the guides.

You will have to learn to release the line with your left hand, if you are going to put the reel down the bottom............... 

I'm not that old of a dog yet. I can still learn new tricks. Plus I'm actually left handed, I just fish righty.

Also if I'm not throwing super heavy weight that would require my hands further apart, couldn't I just cast it like a normal rod?

Firstly, we do consider our rods to be 'normal', it's yours that are different.............. 

We use the reel down design for tods even down as far as 2oz sinkers or lures, it effects more power through the rod, and allows for such extravagant guide spacing from the reel seat. I'm a pensioner, and can still launch a 3oz sinker with our 12' rod built 'our' way - over 130 meters (400 feet).

[JasonGotaProblem]

Firstly, we do consider our rods to be 'normal', it's yours that are different.............. 

I do believe that speaking relative to where I'm sitting, you're currently standing almost upside down. But I digress...

We use the reel down design for tods even down as far as 2oz sinkers or lures, it effects more power through the rod, and allows for such extravagant guide spacing from the reel seat. I'm a pensioner, and can still launch a 3oz sinker with our 12' rod built 'our' way - over 130 meters (400 feet).

I mean that's the whole reason I'm interested. I am always trying to cast a bit further. Even if that means learning a completely new technique. However that rod sold before I could get it (it was only $40 with tags still on, I'm not surprised I missed it) so I may have to develop some patience if I still wanna go that route. What's the shortest rod such a layout would be reasonable on?

Out of curiosity, what's the farthest thrown cast you know of from one of your builds (either you or a customer throwing)? The longest I've ever managed was about 150yds and that was with a favorable tail wind and a bit of luck.

[Jeri]

Shortest rod we have built to date with true KR concept and guides, was 9'-6", used on the Okavango, by a shore based lure angler for Tigerfish - casting 2oz lures well over 100 metres.

Have a project consultancy coming next month for a 2 piece rod for spinning in estuaries and Tigerfish, which is just 7'-2"long, to be built reel up (pr traditional in your sense) - for use with 15-20lb braid.

Longest casts by clients with our rods on our test field (desert), were over 200 metres, we stop measuring past that pole in the field. Personally, 165 metres, all based on slight head wind or no wind.

[JasonGotaProblem]

After all this has rattled around in my head for a while, ive arrived at what may be a realization.

The KR concept system is based on rapidly reducing the line's cone, where the new concept type layout is more gradual.

And I find myself wondering if the KR concept shines brightest when casting with a bit of weight, because the lure has plenty enough momentum to pull the line through the aggressive reduction train, and any minimal loss of momentum from the guides is overruled by the aerodynamic benefit of a tighter coil/near straight line flying. And maybe the more gradual reduction is more appropriate for very light lures where theres less initial momentum because that initial loss becomes more significant.

Thoughts? I'm sure some testing is in order, and I may have missed something important.

Further thought that likely doesn't warrant its own thread: been having discussions lately about why long casts matter so much. And I realize the answer is related to why one would want higher drag capability despite not having any intent of using it: I want 30# of drag, even though I'll likely only fish at 15 max, because if the reel maxes out at 15 then it's probably jerky as heck. Where a reel that maxes out at 30 but set to 15 is likely butter smooth at 15.

If your rod can only cast 60 yds max on a good day, you likely cant cast accurately at 50 yds. You're giving it all you got to just get it out there. But if your rod can cast 100 yds easily, odds are you can cast to 50 without having to go max effort, and can possibly sight cast reasonably accurately at that range (if you're a person who can cast accurately in general, its a rod not a magic wand).

[Jeri]

KR Concept is an evolution of NGC, which ultimately is derived from the very old (1960's) Omura Theory.

Currently working on a 2 piece 7'-2" light spinning rod, which is casting 1/4 - 1/2 oz lures, and excelling at distance with KR Concept scheme of guides. Distances we are getting don't warrant investigating other options as the line flow during casts is faultless and silent.

The more salient points are spool diameter, line weight (size) and the distances to the first guide. Little to do with weight of the lure.

Just our findings.

[JasonGotaProblem]

When I say "light" I mean like unweighted soft plastics. My idea is based on the idea that beyond a certain level of momentum, the aggressive reduction isn't a factor because the forces pulling the line up and out are far greater than the centripedal forces of the line exiting the spool (we're talking spinning rigs here). But on a lighter lure, that momentum isn't there.

The other thing to consider, and I may be talking more to myself because it may be obvious to everyone else, is that there's a certain logical limit imposed by physics for how far one can throw a lure that weighs 1/16th of an ounce. A rod/reel combo with utterly perfect geometry and action will likely take you up to that limit, but the max distance a 1/8th oz lure can fly is likely substantially less than the max distance an 8oz lure can fly. I'm a physics nerd, so this shoulda been obvious a while ago. but sometimes it takes me a sec to put 2 and 2 together.

[boon]

Fairly basic physics, as my interpretation goes. The thing on the end of the line will have a given kinetic energy (Ek), 1/2 Mass * Velocity^2.

That energy is being shed, primarily by friction between the line and the guides/spool lip (or within the spool bearings in the case of a conventional) and friction between the object being cast (and also to a small extent the line itself) and the air. When the Ek hits 0, your cast thing has stopped.

Assuming there is a more or less hard limit on what you can get the velocity to, the only way to increase Ek is by increasing the mass.

[Jeri]

Isn't this the very problem of trying to create rules and generalisations, they just don't apply or can be wrong or faulty in certain situations.

As Boon has suggested, to increase kinetic energy through an ultra light situation, either more mass or more speed is necessary - so. would a much longer rod generate more speed in the lure and line, so challenging your generalisation?

[JasonGotaProblem]

Isn't this the very problem of trying to create rules and generalisations, they just don't apply or can be wrong or faulty in certain situations.

As Boon has suggested, to increase kinetic energy through an ultra light situation, either more mass or more speed is necessary - so. would a much longer rod generate more speed in the lure and line, so challenging your generalisation?

Agreed that other than the laws of physics, most generalizations, like some casts, fall short. I'll be the first to agree with that. However if you lengthen the rod on one it's not an apples to apples comparison, but if you lengthen both, the original question reappears.

Though based on everything I've learned thus far, K series guides do seem to favor longer rods. But based on your own description you build from the top down, you're not lining the spool shaft up with the edge of a table and going from the bottom up like Fuji is suggesting, or you'd end up with your bottom guide a lot closer to the reel seat. So that begs the question of are you technically building a KR concept, or are you building a different concept using K series guides? Not saying that negatively btw, clearly it's working. I'm just seeking clarity.

So I guess a better way to phrase the question is: for a low weight lure, which layout has a greater effect on (or is a greater detriment to) initial momentum?

[steelfish]

dang, this is getting too much technical for my pay grade