A good first conventional reel

[jurelometer]

Maximum winding load is not something that the reel makers publish.  But in general, conventionals fare better than spinners in this regard. I am not one of those jumbo tuna chasers, but I suspect the that the winding load to drag ratio on a quality big game is better than 1:1.  That way you can rail the rod and wind away in low gear.

Controversial perhaps, but maybe the difference between a fishing reel and a winch.
My electric reels have higher nominal lifting power than they have drag... because they're glorified winches.

Once you have finished the cast, the  fishing reel is a winch.  You have to be able to wind in the fish efficiently  when it is not taking line, or it is going to make for a long day The more drag you need, the more winding capability you need.  But we tend to ignore winding capability.

I understand that some folks think that railing and winding is "cheating" or less "sporting".  Don't know about you, but I find these kind of debates tiresome.  You can use a reel that is not very capable at winding under load, if you find pleasure in the extra challenge.  I won't judge you.  I spend a good chunk of my fishing time throwing flies at fish that don't like to eat flies . This whole sportfishing thing is kind of strange, if you ask me.

-J

[JasonGotaProblem]

This is an interesting discussion about winding load, and truthfully I'm not 100% I understand the distinction being made, because I'm a dummy. Are you basically saying that it doesnt matter if a reel's drag can hit 50# in a lab setting if the gearing cant support winding above 12# without chewing the gears or warping the frame. Am I in the ballpark of the point?

And how does one determine the max winding load of a reel then, without destructive tests?

Thanks to spring scales, I know what 15 and 20# of drag feel like. 15# is just fine for me, above 20, less so. I've only actually used 20# of drag against a fish once and that was to put the brakes on a large shark headed for the barnacles. It was not comfortable, and I don't plan on that being a regular setting for me, though I could see using my LT100 at higher settings against grouper occasionally. I'll ice my sore back while eating a grouper filet and call it even.

Gfish you are too kind. I may have to take you up on that.

[jurelometer]

This is an interesting discussion about winding load, and truthfully I'm not 100% I understand the distinction being made, because I'm a dummy. Are you basically saying that it doesnt matter if a reel's drag can hit 50# in a lab setting if the gearing cant support winding above 12# without chewing the gears or warping the frame. Am I in the ballpark of the point?

And how does one determine the max winding load of a reel then, without destructive tests?

Not a dummy.  We are all learning here. There are several threads here from folks that have hotrodded the drags on their reels only to find that they could not fully take advantage of the extra drag because the reel would fail on winding.  Sal was one of the few that tested both drag and winding load capacity on reels with aftermarket mods. As you noted, these were destructive tests.

In a nutshell, even  the fish is no longer able to take line from the drag, it doesn't always quit pulling, and doesn't get any smaller.  The more drag that you needed to stop the fish, the more winding load capacity that you will need to wind it in.  Pumping and winding techniques, such as the classic lift/drop and wind, rocking, using ocean swells, etc, can be used to lessen the winding load needed, but it doesn't change the fact that more drag used means more winding load capacity needed. I can understand some debate about the ratio, but not about the correlation.


In terms of how to determine what kind of winding load a reel can manage, it gets a brick tricky.  You have to evaluate the design.  I would not buy a reel without looking at the schematic. 

Generally, spinning reels are at a mechanical disadvantage, compounded by the fact that they often use softer gears to keeep all those big assemblies oscillating and spinning smoothly.  Even with the big bucks super spinners,  they will tell you that  chewed up reel failures are "pilot error" from "winching on the fish", while simultaneously advertising their 50 lb drag capacity 

When it comes to conventional reels,  you have to visualize the power train from shoulder to spool.  failures specific to winding under load are usually gears shredding, anti reverse failing, and handle arm to main shaft junction getting loose. For example, on the classic Penns, the brass gear sleeve to handle hole junction  is pretty minimal and rounds off pretty easily under load on the smaller to mid sized reels.  Having the main gear shaft supported on both ends by bearings/bushings really helps, as the ergonomics of handle winding causes us to create angular force  on the gear/handle shaft, pulling the gears apart if the shaft is unsupported on the handle side.  This can break the ends of the gear teeth and also can pull the ratchet over or under the dog. In general, the more shafts supported on both ends (including the dog shaft), the better.

Larger gear teeth allow for more misalignment before the teeth start shredding.  I am of the opinion that the material selection (within reason) is less important than the design choices.

There are some other design choices that affect both winding and drag capacity, but I will skip these for now.

If you look at the mostly properly designed but somewhat soulless Shimano TLD Star, you will see a pretty good example of getting most of the design choices right for both drag and winding on a star drag.

Thanks to spring scales, I know what 15 and 20# of drag feel like. 15# is just fine for me, above 20, less so. I've only actually used 20# of drag against a fish once and that was to put the brakes on a large shark headed for the barnacles. It was not comfortable, and I don't plan on that being a regular setting for me, though I could see using my LT100 at higher settings against grouper occasionally. I'll ice my sore back while eating a grouper filet and call it even.

Up and down is a lot harder than horizontal.  If you are fishing with a guide on a small boat with high drag, the guide will probably have one hand free to grab your belt loop it it looks like you are going to get pulled out of the boat.  Sitting on the rod butt, railed on a low gunnel with 20 lbs of drag, I have been lifted off my feet when going over a swell.  Haven't gone over the rail yet, but the possibility has crossed my mind more than once.

But good on you for using a scale.  You are way ahead of the game.

Gfish you are too kind. I may have to take you up on that.

Greg is a good guy. 

-J

[JasonGotaProblem]

I may be about to meet someone to get an everol 12-20 for $100

Good buy? Good first conventional?

[JasonGotaProblem]

Well i went for it. It's pretty dusty and the previous owner confirms its been in storage for a decade. Still moves quite nicely for how gross it is. This may be my tonight project.

[boon]

I understand that some folks think that railing and winding is "cheating" or less "sporting".  Don't know about you, but I find these kind of debates tiresome.  You can use a reel that is not very capable at winding under load, if you find pleasure in the extra challenge.  I won't judge you.  I spend a good chunk of my fishing time throwing flies at fish that don't like to eat flies . This whole sportfishing thing is kind of strange, if you ask me.

-J

You're right, it is an odd pursuit where we seem to deliberately make things difficult for ourselves.
But I think you hit the nail on the head re. "sportsfishing". To my mind, fishing the rail is a very short hop away from leaving a bent butt rod in a rod holder and pinch-pulling a fish in on low gear, Wicked Tuna style. At that point it's not sportfishing any more, it's harvesting meat; may as well use an electric reel so you don't risk spilling your beer while the fish comes to the rail to be gaffed. It appears that the Florida swordfish fishery has mastered this technique, with plenty of videos online of anglers celebrating and getting very excited about how awesomely they watched an electric reel in a rod holder wind a fish in for them.

We use electric reels on bent butts to harvest deep water fish from close to 1000ft of water but I'm not pretending for a second that it's sportsfishing.

I may be about to meet someone to get an everol 12-20 for $100

Good buy? Good first conventional?

If it's not completely ruined that's a steal and should be a very very nice reel.

[oldmanjoe]

Well i went for it. It's pretty dusty and the previous owner confirms its been in storage for a decade. Still moves quite nicely for how gross it is. This may be my tonight project.

Sounds like a score .   You know is all about the pictures  !!!!

[steelfish]

Everol reels are quality reels, so hopefully with a good service and maybe installing new bearings you will have it ready for many years.

as our friend Joe said, put some pictures of the reel

[thrasher]

I'm with joe.......lets see it!!!

[JasonGotaProblem]

Pretty grimy before pics. The dust is the easy part. I'm guessing those are metric Allen key screws?

[steelfish]

score!!
big time amigo

[JasonGotaProblem]

I ended up ordering a 506HS after all. Got it for a good price. Might end up with a SS sleeve and Bryans drags and call it a day.