Grinding a 20/30/50 visx cam

[Bill B]

I'll chime in with more of a question than anything.  The difference between the linear cut and the helical cut seems to be the surface area of contact between the cam and follower.  So with the helical cut you have more contact which would result in more friction but with the linear cut you have less contact with less friction which but would result in more wear on the cam ending up with a helical cut by all the wear.  In the end would any of it really matter?  Ok I'll stop talking now 😆

[pitchinwedge]

Some parts came today.  Tried various things with no success.

For the 16 visx,  add another belleville to make the stack "(()".

Added a third belleville "(()".  Two towards the sideplate and one towards the drag assembly.  Stack became too thick.  Can't screw on the knob without engaging some drag.  Zero freespool after reassembly. 

For the 30 visx 30, you will likely have thinner bellevilles.  Switch the thicker bellevilles from the visx 20/50 and see.

You are correct that the bellevilles I have are thinner (0.031"). Don't yet have the ones for the 50 VISX. It was a total waste of time, but I tried various combinations of 2 bellevilles + shims, 3 bellevilles, and even 4 bellevilles.  Really hope the 50 VISX bellevilles will do the trick.  Expect them to arrive within the week.

[pitchinwedge]

Think I finally got the 16VISX worked out.  Installed two heavy bellevilles (key #18HH), one light belleville from a TRQ25NLD2 (key #18L), and a 0.008" spool shim (key #154BB).  (|)) 

Then, added a two 0.012" spool shims (key #154B) right before the drive plate bearing (key #26).  Also, in an abundance of paranoia, I stripped all the grease from the drag washers and drag plate.

Cranked down the preset until freespool starts to get hindered.   Straight pulls on the spring scale produced:

Full - 40lbs
#4 - 35lbs
#3 - 30lbs
#2 - 20lbs
#1 - 10lbs

Super happy with the results but the drags are dry.  Going to regrease the drags with some fresh Cal's tomorrow.  Hopefully the drag output doesn't change.  Next up are the 30VISX and a bunch of TRQxxLD2s.

Thanks again Alan for sharing these golden nuggets of knowledge.  No way I would have figured it out without your help.

[Bill B]

Good job staying after it! Bill

[alantani]

yeah, make sure that the drags are greased.  i doubt that it will change the drag range at all.  great work!!!!

[pitchinwedge]

Argh... I finished greasing up the drag and was dialing in the preset level with the spring scale.  Think I only got to around 30lbs at Full when I started hearing some intermittent grinding noise as line was being peeled off the spool pulled under load.

Took the reel apart again to inspect the pinion gear and bearing.  There is the tiniest amount play. Seems the bearing is munched and allowing some movement between the inner and outer rings.  Will inspect further when I get more time. 

I guess one brief episode of 40lbs at Full was too much for the pinion bearing to deal with?  Shaking my head disgust. 

[alantani]

i found this same problem in a visx 12.  i went after the frame with a dremal.  problem solved..... 

[pitchinwedge]

Took another look at the pinion bearing.  It's totally fine, just as it was a couple of days ago. 

So, extracted the spool assembly along with the spindle and pinion.  Held the spool tight and with the pinion in place I hooked my index finger over the  the threaded end of the spindle and pulled.  There is definitely some movement.  Can see the pinion rocking back and forth a little when I apply pressure.  Not sure if the spindle is actually bending, but it sure seems like it.  Whoa. 

Do you remember how much material you had to remove from the 12VISX with the Dremel? If I do it, I'm thinking I'll need to gouge out a pretty good amount. Grind away perhaps a few mm's?

[alantani]

i just hacked away until the grinding stopped.   

[pitchinwedge]

Thanks for the reply Alan.  Just back from a trip catching nothing over 70lbs.  The only heavy reel to see any action was the 16VISX, but only for 30 seconds or so until the fish came unbuttoned.  Only pushed up the lever to 20lbs of drag so there weren't any issues.  For now I've nothing else on the calendar so there should be plenty of time to keep troubleshooting these reels.

[pitchinwedge]

Happy New Year folks! Was doing the year-end cleanout, which reminded me to throw up an update for this thread.

A couple months back, the folks at Penn were nice enough to try to fix my 12VISX and 16VISX under warranty.  They sent the reels back to me from Philly with replaced frames and spools.  Nothing else was done or replaced, which I found odd.

The gold anodized finish of the replacement parts on the 12VISX matched somewhat, but the 16VISX looked like Frankenstein and performed even worse at just 20# of drag before grinding.  Clearly, the service techs are color blind and don't actually drag test any of these reels before sending them back.  Thankfully, Penn decided to send me brand new 16VISX. 

I listened carefully for spool grinding when setting drags to avoid damaging the frame/spools again and then backed-off until there was no hint of grinding.  So now, the repaired 12VISX tops out 33# and the brand new 16VISX tops out at 38#.  I believe should be the truth-in-advertising numbers. Hopefully others find this information helpful.

[Squidder Bidder]

Bumping this because people may have more experience with these reels since Alan first did his tutorial.

I own seven of the 50VISX, which are our trolling reels for the Northeast Canyons here in NJ and I'm very happy with them for this use. I went with the VISX over the VISW for the higher maximum drag figures and a slight weight savings (I find these reels a bit less cumbersome than the Wides for standup applications).

I find, as Alan and others do, that a more gradual drag curve over the course of the lever's travel would make these reels even better for my application.

Has anyone tried dropping in the 50VISW cam into the 50VISX to see whether the former would make the drag curve more gradual?

Secondly, would it be possible to get the correct drag geometry based upon one of the successfully ground cams and have a new prototype cam machined from stock to be a drop-in aftermarket part?

If so and if there is interest, we could do some kind of up-front crowd-funding of the project to make the effort worthwhile. I'd be in for at least seven units.

[jurelometer]

Secondly, would it be possible to get the correct drag geometry based upon one of the successfully ground cams and have a new prototype cam machined from stock to be a drop-in aftermarket part?

If so and if there is interest, we could do some kind of up-front crowd-funding of the project to make the effort worthwhile. I'd be in for at least seven units.

I have been thinking about this some more..Glad that you resurrected this thread.

Two thoughts:

1.  It is useful to keep the effect of friction from moving line in water in mind. The amount of line in the water, and how much of it is being pulled sideways (and at what speed) changes the load on the fish end of the line without changing the load on the reel end.  The difference can be substantial.  Not to mention how much drag increases at the reel as line fill diameter decreases.

So until you get the fish on a short line, the effective drag is not what you have set and is constantly changing, even if you don't touch the lever.

This is not to say that folk might not find value in a more linear ramp, just that there may not be as much functional value as we are putting on it.

2.  To get a specific linear load increase, the ramp progression of the cam  has to match  the load to compression ratio (low much force it takes to compress a certain distance) as load increases on the Bellevilles, as well as any change in the ratio as load increases.

As Robert has noted, as long as you keep  Bellevilles under 70% or so  of the maximum load, the progression will be pretty linear.  But when you start messing with orientations of the stack and/or mixing Belleville thicknesses, it gets a bit sketchier and the progression can turn into a curve earlier.

To get this desired  magical linear ramp over a specific drag range requires a combination of a specific cam shape and a specific Belleville stack.

I wouldn't be surprised if a  "linear drag" kit for a given load range would require a cam, a set of Bellevilles and flats/shims, and a diagram for stacking up the washers.

Here is a nice writeup on the effect of different stack orientations.  If you are willing to do the math, you can even map out the load to compression curve, or shell out some money for some software:

https://www.bellevillesprings.com/stacking-disc-springs/

-J

[Keta]

It might not be truly "linear" but Alan's re-contoured cams do not ramp up as rapidly past strike as OEM cams and if one puts number stickers on the reel it gives you a reference. 

Some people slam their reel to strike right after getting bit, I rarely do and adjust the drag as needed, with the exception of my smaller FTH/TRQ 15Ns and 10XN on larger fish, like 50#-70# tuna. I tend to go to full (15#-18#) shortly after the hook set with them and keep them at full bue to limited line capacity.