How do you make braid slip on a spool

[Gfish]

Soooo, the take-away for me is 1) don't let someone else tie the line to spool knot, nor should I trust the "shop" to wind it right, much like I don't trust mechanics and have to inspect everything they do that I can see. Use a self tightening knot, faced the right way. Maybe de-line it more than I wanna and check or re-do the knot and lower coil tightness.

Guy did my timing belt(including pulleys, hoses, radiator fluid, water pump and thermostat), but he didn't use what I expected him to with the fluid I bought. Overheating light came on a week latter. He didn't TAKE THE TIME to "burp" the cooling system, and over the next 3 days, I added about a gallon.

Difficult to tell if lug nuts are tight once the vehicle is off the lift/jack. The weight of the vehicle might put pressure on the wheels/loose nuts making them seem tight.

Guy in the 1st video complained about braid wrapping on the rod tip. One has to untwist about 100' of braid every couple of trips, especially if there's been any trolling.

[oldmanjoe]

Thanks Joe for the thoughtful reply.  I think I better understand where you are going with this.

I am going to answer line by line again . I think it will help grasp what I am trying to convey for those who read this .   You don`t have to take my word as the Gospel Truth , all you have to do is test it for your self .  Since this is theory , there is no stupid questions ,so please ask them .   We all learn from them .

I think that  following observation is useful for a successful arbor knot:
           Answer Back a page or two I left what appears as a telephone number ,it`s in  two places ,it is the answer on how to view a knot.   Yes you can use your phone keypad for the answer .       Get the bolt or smooth rod and 2 foot of string ready so you can prove to yourself some theory can be changed to fact. 


If you tie the arbor knot to tighten as you wind, the line tension increases the grip on the arbor.
               Answer yes  again detail  knot direction .

 BUT...  with a fuller spool,  the friction between all the wraps prevents any pulling load from reaching the arbor. And since braid has very little stretch compared to nylon, once the spool is filled, there is little residual tension in the line to pull on the knot     
                   Answer So what was the target drag to start to spool with ?   For easy math let`s say 100 pound braid , 25-50 -75 pounds drag? 

So the arbor knot just sits there,  probably a bit less tight then when we started and not getting any tighter when we pull line from the filled spool. 
       Answer  why would it be less ,it`s target drag  from the fill spool.   Detail The first layer goes side by side tight from end to end .


Now the effect of pulling on the line is  more  like gripping the arbor knot and its coils with a pair of channel locks and turning  the whole tie off around the arbor.   

The trick that seems to works for me is wrapping over the tag end as Jerry Brown recommended, and is shown in the video below.

Not exactly certain as to why it might work, but I think that the compressive load from the fill presses the tag against the arbor  at many points along the axis instead  of around the axis. The knot cannot rotate without taking the sideways tag with it.
 Answer  I disagree with the start of line  going over the arbor.   The ones who are testing with the bolt and string can test this also.   The tag end is the band aid ,like a strip of tape .  Why cut the tag so short, come back to the knot 180 degrees 2 strip band aid .     He needed to rap most /all of the arbor first to do a pull test.
   If he did two wraps and pulled , Ops .   

My theory was  that the specific knot is not as important as wrapping over the tag properly.   But to be honest, I haven't done any rigorous testing to prove that the tag (or knot) is the key vs just doing a better job on the spool fill.  I tried it all together. Too much work to do a bunch of spool fills to prove a theory. Answer  We can bust the myth , we can scale back the size of the reel and spool and put the heat to it .   I have a couple OC 112 for test mules .

-J

[oldmanjoe]

So I keep circling back mentally to the recent experience at the shop. Specifically that the person who was strongly in favor of mono backing to avoid slipping, tying an arbor knot with braid that ultimately failed completely. Not slipping on the spool, the tag end slipped thru and the knot was history. Complete failure.

I've been beating around the bush here because I hate insulting anyone. The point I'm circling around is that he felt that mono was necessary to prevent slipping, because he might not be that good at tying knots in general.

Sounds like a DIY project  .  Here just in case .https://www.animatedknots.com/fishing-knots#ScrollPoint
  I know you wear flip flops or go bare foot .   Yes friendly banter .     

[oldmanjoe]

Soooo, the take-away for me is 1) don't let someone else tie the line to spool knot, nor should I trust the "shop" to wind it right, much like I don't trust mechanics and have to inspect everything they do that I can see. Use a self tightening knot, faced the right way. Maybe de-line it more than I wanna and check or re-do the knot and lower coil tightness.

Guy did my timing belt(including pulleys, hoses, radiator fluid, water pump and thermostat), but he didn't use what I expected him to with the fluid I bought. Overheating light came on a week latter. He didn't TAKE THE TIME to "burp" the cooling system, and over the next 3 days, I added about a gallon.

Difficult to tell if lug nuts are tight once the vehicle is off the lift/jack. The weight of the vehicle might put pressure on the wheels/loose nuts making them seem tight.

Guy in the 1st video complained about braid wrapping on the rod tip. One has to untwist about 100' of braid every couple of trips, especially if there's been any trolling.

I would watch him do some one else reel and watch for the details . Than you can decide is he your guy or turn and walk away.

Yer  they forget to burp the baby.  You can check the lug nuts on the ground , in fact I would see if you can loosen one a little .   Impact guns will get them stupid tight .    That spool had a extra free spool feature going on .

[Keta]

Too bad quality Spectra grade line winders are so expensive.

[jurelometer]

I think we are going in circles here.  It is kind of hard to do this in a thread-  feel free to join us at the weekly Zoom(s) video conference this Saturday-  I should be at the AM, and maybe the PM too. Anyone else interested- it is open to all members- unstructured and usually fun:

https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,31840.0.html

But in a nutshell:

Wrapping tighter than limit  of elasticity will not store any more tension in the line, it will just make it elongate, which could decrease tension on your arbor knot, plus weakening the braid from elongation plus compression fractures across the woven braid fibers.

For normal fishing I would guess not to go beyond 10% of the stated line class.  You are not going to be rewinding any tighter when you are actually fishing with it.  The cow tuna chasers are probably weakening the line a little with their crazy tight fills, but that is probably a worthwhile tradeoff to avoid having the line dig in on a blistering run at 30 lbs of drag.
 

And..

The arbor knot grips by friction against the spool.  The friction comes from whatever grip you get from orignally cinching the knot down tight plus whatever additional cinching that is coming via the tension from the standing end.

Once there are enough wraps, the tension from pulling on the end of the line won't make it to the arbor knot. so we just have the stored energy to make tension- not much of that available with braid. So the arbor knot is not gripping as tightly once the spool gets filled.

Nylon will stretch as you cinch it down- storing energy - but braid not so much- sort of like wrapping a rubber band vs. soft wire tightly around the arbor (an exaggeration to make my point).

So testing with just an arbor knot and no spool fill is always going to grip better at the arbor than a filled spool.

On a fuller spool, the bottom wraps against the arbor has a lower COF than the rest of the fill against the bottom wraps, so the whole thing is going to spin eventually.  The goal is to get enough friction in place on the bottom layer to make this a moot point.  Which I think might be a rewording of you were saying.


-J

[alantani]

Not a fan of electrical tape.