Tackle Failure...was it the reel???

Started by rebait1, August 21, 2022, 08:59:01 PM

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rebait1

So I posted this at THT but most there are not really experts t reel mechanics......

So we lost a fish due to tackle failure! Me no gusta!!

So we were in our big tournament for the year. when we got there early at 715 we see a big sport fisher in fast reverse. I mean he was hitting harder then I've ever seen a backdown in the NE. Eventually we find out they had lost a blue marlin. In the NE they are rare like 1 out of 500 trips.


Then around 1PM a hit around 1PM on the long center ballyhoo. Probably 200 or 250 leader on a big circle hook. Zzzzzzzzzz- fish hit HARD. We started ho-ing the other lines trying to entice multiple strikes. No takers. The rod was still going hard non stop..... no pulsing just a hard core deep surge. I've caught big sharks, blue marlin giant blue fin and 250lb big eyes. Never seen a run like this. Well a relative newbie was on the rod. We fit him up with harness and plate. Fish still going hard. We had quickly pulled in the large dredges. But we had 2 diving plugs, 4 daisy chains , and at least 2 other long lines still out. The fish was smoking. SO was the reel!

In that moment I thought what a good thing I didn't pick up the rod. I envisioned over 3 hr fight was in order, stand up. Have you ever gone all the way down on a 50 wide get it all back in then have to do it 4-5 more times? LOL Things were getting serious. Captain slowed down at iour urging to dead forward. "STOP THE BOAT" was what i screamed. Oh man. We still had time but in the next 30 seconds we were going to have to do something. I'm not sure what. Cut the other lines and go hard astern? Turn and chase??

Then BING........fish broke the line. Gone

60-80 pound customer rod. Tiagra 50 wide. Momoi 100lb diamond line. Jerry Brown 130lb hollow core. Reel set to 25 lbs at strike.The line broke AT THE REEL! I looked at the reel. It was smoking. It smelled. I knew not to touch either side. Our witch doctor did. He got a large boil on his pinkie psssst just like that. Reel smoked for a few minutes. OK this reel had been serviced by a local shop. Supposedly it had a 'problem' hence the work.

When we tested the reel back at dock it showed 41 pounds of drag at strike. Yes we know that drag increases as the spool gets smaller. But come on now. 41?? I suggested it might have been because the reel needed a good work out before the drags seated themselves. Another angler told be when he tried to reel the Tiagra right afterwards it was bound up and very unsmooth. He said it was f'ed up.

Still JB 130 test HC should not have broken.

So what's your opinion.
-The HC went bad. (unknown age I can find out I assume 10 years old)
-The reel binded up...Bad reel service
-The reel just needed to be broken in
-Crud happens
-We are googans
- Nothing wrong just a big fish having its' way with us
-And what could it have been? We all thought big eye. But I'm not so sure. It could have been a mako, a hammerhead, a BM, a GBFT...it might have even been a manta . Will never know but if we had known it might have changed how we should have reacted.....

Here was what was left. YOU can see still plenty of line. Only like 75-80 gone....



Paws, and enjoy Life !

rebait1

#1
So I'm confused, obviously. I'm unsure if it was the heat of the reel that might have  contributed to the line failure. Was the smell (slight smoke) a sign there was too much grease? Is it possible the drag plates just hadn't been broken in properly? Several said "Pour water on it" which I've become very reluctant to do so. Some have said should NIT be done on reels this side of 1950....

And I guess another Q is 'where' to get the best Tiagra service in the Mid Atlantic area, preferably NJ? They have like 5-8 Tiagra's and if one had issues then it makes sense to service all the reels. The owner is very serious about his fishing and if he thought any others might be suspect I think he'd probably get them all done.

And that's an issue unto itself because to box em all up and ship em to Cal or even fla is not cheap!.
Paws, and enjoy Life !

boon

Rollered rod? I'd be checking all your guides for imperfections as a first port of call.

I've had a Tiagra 50 get dumped before and it didn't even get hot, but it also wasn't running anywhere near that level of drag.

Dominick

That is a mystery. Even at 41 pounds of drag the line should not have broken. I am going to say the reel locked up for some reason. Ask the guy on the rod if ne had to hold the rod to keep from being pulled over. Assuming fresh line it took at least 130lbs of pull to break that line.  The answer will lie in the guts of the reel.  Dominick
Leave the gun.  Take the cannolis.

There are two things I don't like about fishing.  Getting up early in the morning and boats.  The rest of it is fun.

Swami805

I was at hurricane bank with an 80w tiagra and 200 lb hollow almost down to the knot, braid broke as they were clipping on a back up rig. Braid broke, figured it rubbed on the high spot.  Side plate was warm but nothing like you describe
Do what you can with that you have where you are

rebait1

#5
Yeah braid is suspect because braid has mysterious breakoffs/ and it digs into itself. But JB HC lays flat. And after the reel cooled I backed off the drag and it seemed smooth to the pull (by hand) and pulled freely. (Now that I think about it I pulled a little more and the braid broke again in my hand. I did remove 20' to test it on the bench......) But I have never ever seen JB 130 HC fail before this...........

And we can assume the rod guides are 100%. Almost brand new. Winthrops I think. And the line broke at the spool never touching the guides. Much less was it sawed back and forth over them like in a prolonged battle.


I have gone deep on other reels and felt the heat before.....


Paws, and enjoy Life !

Bill B

A few things to consider:

1. When drags heat up there can be a considerable loss of drag pressure
2. Could be a weak spot in the braid.  You stated the fish was pulling steady so I will assume this is the first time that part of the line ever saw a fish
3. If you were fishing 41# of drag at strike, you would be at 82# or more at that level of the spool, maybe even 100#.  Not counting loss of drag pressure due to heat.
4. I have never opened a Tiagra so I'm not sure what could bind due to heat expansion.
5. Did the customer thumb the spool hoping to slow the fish?

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can chime in. But this is where I would start.

Bill
It may not be very productive,
but it's sure going to be interesting!

rebait1

Quote from: Dominick on August 21, 2022, 09:32:02 PMThat is a mystery. Even at 41 pounds of drag the line should not have broken. I am going to say the reel locked up for some reason. Ask the guy on the rod if ne had to hold the rod to keep from being pulled over. Assuming fresh line it took at least 130lbs of pull to break that line.  The answer will lie in the guts of the reel.  Dominick

The guy was a newbie...but we were all there closely watching. Not knowing what type if fish it was left us clueless as how to respond. Yeah loosening the drag may have been helpful but with it stripping that quick 1. We didn't have time to think that and 2. We would not have felt confident that a newbie could adjust the drag w/o great risk. If he backed doff too quick a huge back lash might have popped up
Paws, and enjoy Life !

oldmanjoe

Grandpa`s words of wisdom......Joey that thing between your shoulders is not a hat rack.....    use it.....
A mind is like a parachute, it only work`s  when it is open.......
The power of Observation   , It`s all about the Details ..
 Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.   Alto Mare

tarpon one

I'm the first to acknowledge this level of fishing is out of my league but I'm a little confused. I went to the Shimano website and the max drag listed for a Tiagra 50 is 26 lbs. There is also a 50 WRLSA listed at 40 lbs. The reel in your picture is older so I suspect the max drag on that reel is in the 26 lbs. range. If your reel was putting out 41 lbs, smoking, rough and hot enough to burn someone I would suspect the service that was just completed is suspect. Just my $.02 but I'm way beyond my pay grade on this one.

Bill B

Quote from: rebait1 on August 21, 2022, 10:01:27 PMYeah braid is suspect because braid has mysterious breakoffs/ and it digs into itself. But JB HC lays flat. And after the reel cooled I backed off the drag and it seemed smooth to the pull (by hand) and pulled freely. (Now that I think about it I pulled a little more and the braid broke again in my hand. I did remove 20' to test it on the bench......) But I have never ever seen JB 130 HC fail before this...........

I think we have our gremlin...I did suffer an unexpected braid failure  on the June 3 day, 80# braid broke with 27# of drag. Fortunately the rest of the braid was good because it was severely tested by back to back 150# bluefin.  Maybe as a test peel off the rest of the HC, add a 50' of line, have your tackle shop tighten the drag to the limit of their winder, tie off the tag end and run the handle until it gets to the temperature you remember and see if the reel locks up.  But after all this abuse a service will probably be needed.  Bill
It may not be very productive,
but it's sure going to be interesting!

Squidder Bidder

Quote from: rebait1 on August 21, 2022, 08:59:01 PMSo I posted this at THT but most there are not really experts t reel mechanics......

So we lost a fish due to tackle failure! Me no gusta!!

So we were in our big tournament for the year. when we got there early at 715 we see a big sport fisher in fast reverse. I mean he was hitting harder then I've ever seen a backdown in the NE. Eventually we find out they had lost a blue marlin. In the NE they are rare like 1 out of 500 trips.


Would that be the Beach Haven White Marlin Invitational?

FWIW, I think there are more Blue Marlin in the NE Canyons than we know. It's just that the thing with Blue Marlin is that we don't target them up here - they're interesting bycatch when tuna fishing. With heavier tackle and tweaking the trolling pattern and speed to target Blue Marlin my guess is that we'd see way more of them. The Canyon Runner guys seem to leader 5-10 a year and while they're out there constantly they're still fishing standup 30s and pulling green machines or shell squids for yellowfin.

Gfish

Great story. Bill's #4 in his 1st post was what I was thinkin given the reels temp.
Fishing tackle is an art form and all fish caught on the right tackle are"Gfish"!

alantani

#13
short answer, i think that your reel functioned as intended and that the braid was good and broke when it was supposed to.  ok. here goes....

there are a couple of things that happen to reels during hard runs like this.  first, parts heat up and expand.  expanding parts will increase pressure on the drag.  when you push the lever forward, it pushes down on the drag washers and bellevilles.  this "tension" never decreases with heat.  it can only increase.  second, the fiberglass/carbon fiber composite drag washer that shimano uses in compressible on the initial throw, but i do not believe that it will be affected as the temperature increases.  and third, the grease can "melt" and become more slick.  i have seen this drag fade in penn senators as they heat up.  drag pressures can decrease by as much as 50%.  bottom line, the only way to know what the end effect would be to actually measure the drag in real time. 

regarding the braid itself, i generally tell guys to toss braid after 10 years.  with hard use, that might be a yearly recommendation.  you will see the line start to fray.  you've all seen fuzzy braid.  that is a bad thing and means that it should be replaced.  it still might retain 99% breaking strength, but fuzzy braid is a bad sign.  obviously, a nick in the braid is also bad.  braid twist is the most common problem that i see.  if the braid twist is severe, it can twist back on itself, creating a knot that snaps easily.  not the case for you, i'm sure, but worth mentioning for others.  and finally, manufacturing defects are always a possibility, but they are so very rare as to virtually be a non-issue. 

increasing drag as the line peels out is simple, really.  i should measure it, but i've just never gotten around to it.  in general, you set the drag when the spool is full.  the physics is simple.  it's like a lever arm or radius.  the drag is 100% when the spool is full.  the drag is 200% when the spool diameter is half, and the spool is 400% when the spool is down to a quarter.  now, the, tiagra has a very large arbor.  i tell guys to set the drag to 30% at strike at the top of the spool.  the size of the arbor determines how much line you will have left when the spool height is down to a quarter, but your spool looks like it's down to a quarter.  that would easily increase the drag to something near the breaking strength of the line. 

rigging here is critical, and this is where i see shops fail their customers time and time again.  there is no standard regarding how to rig a reel with braid.  so i made a standard.  the fact that there is not a single shop on the western hemisphere that can achieve this, is not my problem.  the fact that this is overkill and no one agrees with me is also not my problem.  what i can guarantee is that, under a massive load, the braid that i load onto a reel will never dig in, lock up, and break.  ok, so i'm so smart.  what do i do?  i have a 1/3rd horsepower motor on my line winder.  most motors are the size of a beer can.  my motor is the size of a 5 pound coffee can.  i have a line tensioner with greased carbon fiber drag washers that can deliver up to 40 pounds of perfectly smooth, consistent, tension.  i always set the line tensioner with a scale.  i figure out what the drag at strike will be.  in the case of a 100 pound line class reel, the drag at strike would be 30 pounds.  i then set the line tensioner to 2/3rd of the strike drag, so that would be 20 pounds.  most shops can get more than 5 pounds.  actually, most shops don't even check.  most shops would say that this amount of tension is not necessary and they are probably correct.  but i do this so that i can absolutely guarantee that the line will never dig in.  anything less is just, well, less.

and lastly, the rod.  most guys don't think about this, but the rod is 50% of the equation when it comes to landing a big fish.  at maximum flex, the guides on a rod and add as much as 10%.  rollers add less, bad guides or rollers and add more.  it's a small thing, but these small things add up.

bottom line, i think the reel was fine, i think the rod was fine, and i think the line was fine.  i think you just got beat.  and this is what keeps us coming back for more!!!!! 
send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

JasonGotaProblem

Just once I wanna find out the answer to one of these was that someone hooked a passing submarine, and didnt stand a chance.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.