How Does the Silent Dog Work?

[hotajax]

I am having a hard time seeing how the silent dog engages the ratchet in the anti-reverse of a Penn 850 SS.
There's a small U-shaped flimsy piece of metal that is attached to the dog lever, and contacts the ratchet on both sides of the ratchet.  How does this work to engage the anti-reverse without the use of a spring?

Thanks

[Keta]

Friction.

[JasonGotaProblem]

For one you can't grease the AR ratchet or it won't work. As the reel is spinning the intended direction the centripetal force from the rotation of the ratchet makes the metal ears in contact with the ratchet tend to move outward. When line is being pulled out the rotor wants to rotate the other direction. The ratchet wants to rotate with it. Friction pulls the dog the other direction in toward the ratchet, the dog engages, and the rotor stops turning backward, allowing the drag to start running.

[Brewcrafter]

Lee's got it.  In a traditional "non-silent" arrangement you have a spring that loads the dog(s) to engage the ratchet, and as such when the ratchet is going in the normal direction you are hearing the dogs ride up over the teeth and then "click" into place when they drop in and engage the next tooth in the gear.  The dog(s) are basically in contact with the teeth of the ratchet at all times.
With the "Silent" arrangement, the dog(s) do not move as the ratchet rotates, they just ride there a fixed distance from the centerline of the ratchet.  When the ratchet reverses however, that "small flimsy U-shaped piece of metal" that is in contact with the ratchet causes the dog to pivot and pulls it in by friction to engage the ratchet.
I think elsewhere on the forum are some great photos on a Lexa of what it looks like when that flimsy piece of metal fails. - john

[hotajax]

For one you can't grease the AR ratchet or it won't work. As the reel is spinning the intended direction the centripetal force from the rotation of the ratchet makes the metal ears in contact with the ratchet tend to move outward. When line is being pulled out the rotor wants to rotate the other direction. The ratchet wants to rotate with it. Friction pulls the dog the other direction in toward the ratchet, the dog engages, and the rotor stops turning backward, allowing the drag to start running.

Wow, I would have put grease on the ratchet.  Good to know. Thanks. 

Other question:  Do these "silent dogs" wear out a whole lot?

[JasonGotaProblem]

Sprung dogs see more wear because they are always in contact. It's my understanding though that most dog failures on these reels are sudden and catastrophic breakage, not so much slowly wearing out. Perhaps others can correct that statement if I'm wrong.

A drop or two of oil is all you need here.

[hotajax]

So, is it wise to put oil on the ratchet, or not lube it at all?  Your above statement indicates not to put grease on it.  Just looking to clarify.  Thanks.

[jurelometer]

The problem with silent dogs is not so much wear, but that they are more prone to not engage if their environment is not just right.  The alignment height and plane must be perfect.  You need some lubricant, but too much, and if the lubricant thickens or starts to gum up a bit, your anti-reverse disappears. 

When things go south with a silent dog, the ears can get mangled by the ratchet.  You can also mangle the ears yourself during maintenance if you are not careful.

For saltwater reels with silent dogs, I prefer a thin coat of grease on the ratchet.  I am curious as to what the reel repair pros here do.

When sprung dogs fail, it is usually because the  shaft loses alignment under load, causing the ratchet to angle over or under the dog.  This same action can cause wear to the end of the dog over time if the reel is used frequently under heavy load.  If the dog post is not strong enough, it can get bent as well.  Properly designed sprung dogs are more capable of handling higher loads and are more reliable in less than ideal environments, and therefore we don't find silent dogs as often on larger saltwater reels.

-J

[hotajax]

Great understanding of the issue 

[boon]

Properly designed sprung dogs are more capable of handling higher loads and are more reliable in less than ideal environments, and therefore we don't find silent dogs as often on larger saltwater reels.

The Talica, Saltiga, and Makairas have silent dogs and I've never heard of them (especially the Mak) going backwards. I think we don't find silent dogs on larger saltwater reels because many of them haven't had a fundamental design change in what, 20+ years? The Tiagra is 30 years old now (!!!) and has had what, a new handle design and an LRS cam that suits braid a bit better in that time?

[Hardy Boy]

Those high end reels have a robust way to support the silent dogs and the "ratchet plate ", plus the dogs are thick that's why they work well. Look at a squall with the "ratchet" not supported and the thin dog on a little pin ................... they get mangled all of the time.


Cheers:

Todd

[Keta]

I had a 5601C3 in my shop with a failed AR but ir was caused by someone putting line on with a line winder like it was a right hand reel.  It pulled the pin out and cracked the plate.

[jurelometer]

Properly designed sprung dogs are more capable of handling higher loads and are more reliable in less than ideal environments, and therefore we don't find silent dogs as often on larger saltwater reels.

The Talica, Saltiga, and Makairas have silent dogs and I've never heard of them (especially the Mak) going backwards. I think we don't find silent dogs on larger saltwater reels because many of them haven't had a fundamental design change in what, 20+ years? The Tiagra is 30 years old now (!!!) and has had what, a new handle design and an LRS cam that suits braid a bit better in that time?

I do agree that there is more demand for reels without the dog click, maybe because all those spinners and wayward conventionals that use one-way bearings has created a market for quieter reels.  But the eared dog design has been around forever.

I also agree that  we should differentiate between eared dogs vs that new friction/lever gizmo.

The classic style silent eared dog design does fail in saltwater due to corrosion or old grease.  There are posts here and out on the web, and do do include newer reels like the Talica.

The newer Avet silent dog gizmo  (the Makaira looks very similar) is not so sensitive to getting stuck on open as the eared dog design. Interestingly, Avet still chose to use traditional sprung dogs on its larger reels.

There are multiple reasons why a sprung dog system is functionally superior.  But they all basically revolve around the fact that the dog is constantly being pushed inward as you wind forward, which means that the dog is always ready, and will pretty much always position itself all the way down to fully engage against the ratchet tooth. This allows you to use the optimal ratchet tooth shape and dog post location for maximum strength, and place the ratchet teeth closer together, meaning less backplay for rotation.

All types of silent dog designs don't start moving the dog inward until the ratchet is already rotating  backward, meaning that the design has to accommodate the dog not always dropping all the way down before it contacts the ratchet tooth.  This includes accommodations like  spacing the ratchet teeth farther apart to allow for more rotation distance to give the dog a greater opportunity to drop all the way down (most of the time). The additional rotation means more acceleration, which means more force as well.

I have designed sprung dog/ratchet mechanisms, so I am familiar with the formulas there.  I don't want to take too strong a stance against the new style non-eared silent dog designs that I don't understand so well.  It is quite possible that the Avet/Makaira  designs have succeeded in the uphill battle to make the system strong and reliable enough. And the customer gets a quieter reel.

But for me, the clicking noise from the simple/strong/reliable sprung dog isn't much of an issue. Maybe because I used to listen to loud music too much?


-J

[Cor]

Just some personal experience on these "eared AR pawls"

Firstly I prefer a solid clicking pawl, 2 if possible but generally no longer have too much choice.   I did modify one of my reels, worked OK for a season or two but as I am not a toolmaker my conversion was a bit amateurish and eventually failed.

I have always applied a thin layer of grease on the AR gear, in the belief that it may reduce some wear on the ears and secondly because I think it's such a light pawl that the grease actually creates some drag and makes the pawls click in to place quicker when the direction is reversed.

I don't remember how long we've had this type of pawl, but I've had one total failure where the ears actually wore away and left a piece inside the reel body.

[Reeltyme]

In my experience with these ar's simply oil on the pivot point and dry on the racket. Works for me and my customers.