Gear grinding on 113H

[Donnyboat]

It looks great john, maybe if you place a delrin washer under the star, it will be easier to increase the drag when you have a large fish on, good luck & thanks for the feed back, cheers Don.

[Shark Hunter]

Glad you got it figured out.

[Keta]

It sounds to me like the higher gears would not be the best choice for what you are doing with the reel.

[Finest Kind]

I made a couple of final modifications on this reel that I wanted to add to the post. I put a delrin washer between the top most keyed washer and the tophat as per Ted and Donnyboat's recommendation. I also added a Maxed Out soft handle and blade from Ted. In terms of how the reel feels in the hand, this was a huge improvement. It also looks fantastic. No harm there. I'm hoping to give this reel a workout in the coming months. It really feels strong and capable. Thank you again Ted!!!

[jurelometer]

The top continuous operating temp for Delrin is about 180F, and it starts getting pretty squishy in the neighborhood of 250F.
 
Probably not a problem for cranking down the drag to stop a grouper in it's tracks, but if you are thinking about  a long run from a big tuna at higher drag settings, Delrin would not be my first choice for this usage, especially at the top of the stack, but probably not for an undergear washer either.

-J

[Finest Kind]

Oh Boy. Thanks for that info Jurelometer. My concern is that with the top keyed washer and the top hat I thought there should be something in between to eliminate the metal to metal contact. I was envisioning a fish running and my drag screaming like the brakes on a freight train. I tried to build this reel for maximum strength, due to the fish I hope to catch with it, but actually I almost always fish with a fairly light drag. The only time I am likely to bear down is when the fish is circling later in the fight. Then I short pump. I never tried a drag washer under the main gear, but I have seen the old style Penn under gear washers chewed up a bit.That's why I thought I would try the delrin. I'm not looking for higher drag numbers, but I would like the drag as smooth as possible. Back in the 1980's I used to pour buckets of water over my 115 Senators when I had a hot fish on. Very dramatic and it did work well to cool off the drags. I still have those reels, now with HT 100 drags. The dousing didn't hurt them! If I'm lucky enough to get a nice fish with this reel this season I will take a look at the washers and post as to how they held up.
Thanks again,
John

[jurelometer]

Never a fan of drag washers under main gear. That part is supposed to behave as a thrust bearing, and helps to hold the gear flat.  But just I do a few reels a year and Mr. Tani does several hundred, and he likes the CF.

We all jumped on the Delrin bandwagon because somebody (Sal) tried it, and the smaller gap between static vs. kinetic coefficient of friction makes the drag smoother.  Since we want friction in the drag stack, providing extra smoothness alone is not a benefit.  We want consistency from dead stop to turning.

Rulon will have similar (slightly better) properties to Delrin, and has a much higher temperature range.  It may be worth trying.

I don't think that you should be getting steel on steel friction with a stock (or properly customized) drag stack. 

I haven't played with a Delrin top washer, and never understood the point of it, but folks here have reported a smoother drag.

I have put Delin under gear washers on a few reels, and it does seem to smooth out the drag a bit, but the difference was not dramatic for me. Nothing wrong with the stock washers, either.  CF will effectively add another drag washer to the stack, but you loose the thrust bearing, which just seems like bad mechanical design to me.  But while CF might shred, at least it won't melt.

-J

[Keta]

The top washer is keyed and turns with the gear sleve so there should not be any issues with the spacer sleve and top washer turning.

A CF under washer adds more friction on the gear, more friction=more drag.

If the CF under washer is being dammaged it is either too large OD and the ratchet is eating it or the surfaces it is between are rough and need to be smoothed.

[jurelometer]

If the CF under washer is being dammaged it is either too large OD and the ratchet is eating it or the surfaces it is between are rough and need to be smoothed.

I would expect that the dog is doing some of the chewing

An issue with the gear sleeve design of the classic Penns is that the gear sleeve (including the ratchet wheel), can angle itself out of alignment under heavy winding load. this can cause the dog to get pushed a bit under the ratchet wheel, into that CF washer. I am not sure that you can make the drag washer small enough to entirely avoid this.

Some of our best reel repair pros (I am not one of them) have taken positions on either side of CF undergear debate.

-J

[JasonGotaProblem]

Personal experience that I can't quantify yet: I've found that CF instead of a hard washer has the effect of increasing the resistance to spinning the handle if drag is set high, even if there's no fish on line. It's just resistance to rotation, in both directions. Which is by nature also added drag.

[jurelometer]

Personal experience that I can't quantify yet: I've found that CF instead of a hard washer has the effect of increasing the resistance to spinning the handle if drag is set high, even if there's no fish on line. It's just resistance to rotation, in both directions. Which is by nature also added drag.

I think there is something else wrong going on.  The washer, main gear and the shaft+ratchet wheel are turning in unison when you are winding, so there is no sliding friction. Maybe you changed the stack and/or gear height, causing something else to be rubbing that shouldn't be?

-J

[JasonGotaProblem]

Edit: total brain fart. I retract all of the following. Not sure i agree. In a tight-drag situation the drag star is pushing against the spacers and washers etc which are pushing against the drag stack which is pushing against the main gear. If drag isnt slipping all the above is rotating in unison. But below that is the under gear washer in question and below that is the bridge or brake plate or whatever you wanna call it, which isn't rotating with any of the above. So the under gear washer is getting pinched between something that isn't rotating and something that is rotating. So drag slipping or not it's not unreasonable to think the composition of that material would make a difference when winding with a high drag setting even if not actively under load. But you wouldn't notice it unless the drag was tight.

[steelfish]

So the under gear washer is getting pinched between something that isn't rotating and something that is rotating.

amigo, the undergear washer is pinched between the shaft sleeve (which rotates when winding the handle) and the main gear with all the drag stack inside.

there is nothing between the shaft sleeve which rotates and the Bridge plate which dont rotate at all
(or maybe I missunderstanding something here)

[JasonGotaProblem]

Man I need to think more clearly before I post stuff sometimes. I was just dead wrong.

[Keta]

Yup, the top washer is keyed to the gearsleve and does not turn in relation to the gearsleeve.