Fully Ceramic Line Roller Bearings Observations

[philaroman]

...and it's all STRICTLY academic, anyway, 'cause it's a line roller
you never know when it's actually rolling & when line is slipping over the surface
esp., slick modern stuff -- wet uncoated PE going over large, well-coated roller

[jurelometer]

"The fastest recorded species is the yellowfin tuna at around 46 miles per hour" 
https://a-z-animals.com/blog/the-10-fastest-fish-in-the-ocean/

I can only make a subjective comment here.
If you hook one of these fish on a chunk of bait, they take off in too the deep and your reel zings, but 46 MPH, I sort of doubt that when on a line.  Maybe a huge Bluefin?

We often catch Yellowfin on the surface on a lure, then they take off at speed, but usually remain on the surface where we can see them.  In this case we need to use the boat to follow the fish as our tackle is made for casting and not strong enough to subdue a large Yellowfin on its own.

I can estimate the boat speed fairly well and do not think when following a hooked tuna we exceed a boat speed of 7 knots and nor is the Tuna opening the gap even at short bursts, at a speed much higher than that, so my simple guesstimate is fish speed in water = 15 knots.

So my independent guess agrees close enough with jurelometer's scientific one

Exactly.  If you run down a hooked pelagic at 20 knots, you are going to go right past it pretty quickly.

Those strangely fast numbers (like the 70MPH sailfish) did originate in the scientific literature back in like the 1950s  or so,  but it was based on "fishermen's estimates", probably the least accurate estimation method known to man.  Bit of a black eye for my "Team Science"

But the bad data keeps getting propagated as you noted.  That article did not list any references and was written by some unqualified  professional content generator/farmer (soon to be replaced by an AI chatbot).  But these numbers are all over the internet, so we all expect that they are correct.

Here is an interesting newer paper that sets some speed  ranges based on muscle twitch speed and cavitation limits:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5087677/pdf/biolopen-5-019919.pdf

I'll bet just about nobody has a spool that'll ever spin fast enough to require an abec 5 or above bearing. Probably not an abec3 or above But I probably don't need to convince you that quality spool bearings matter both for casting far or casting light lures. We agree that there's diminishing returns as one goes fancier on a bearing, but steal a world record chaser's casting rig and swap their fancy ceramics for a true abec 3 steel bearing from a reputable manufacturer and ask them to throw a long cast. I'd be willing to bet we'd see a difference in distance.

And I'll bet the long cast enthusiast wouldn't take any solace in being told that the shorter cast is no big deal because the spool's speed never got above 1/5 the bearing's RPM rating.

Take sets of ceramic, high end stainless, and Ali Baba specials.  Remove all shields, clean completely and cast all three sets running dry  with  the same reel.  I'll bet that one of us is going to be surprised. 

...and it's all STRICTLY academic, anyway, 'cause it's a line roller
you never know when it's actually rolling & when line is slipping over the surface
esp., slick modern stuff -- wet uncoated PE going over large, well-coated roller

That's a good point.  UHMWPE line has an extremely low coefficient of friction.  And we don't seem to need rollers on any of the rod guides that are under the same loads and speeds.  Makes me wonder why bail rollers are necessary nowadays.  Why not just a chunk of ceramic?
 
-J

[Cor]

That's a good point.  UHMWPE line has an extremely low coefficient of friction.  And we don't seem to need rollers on any of the rod guides that are under the same loads and speeds.  Makes me wonder why bail rollers are necessary nowadays.  Why not just a chunk of ceramic?
 
-J
[/quote]

Probably marketing and capitalism?

[jurelometer]

That's a good point.  UHMWPE line has an extremely low coefficient of friction.  And we don't seem to need rollers on any of the rod guides that are under the same loads and speeds.  Makes me wonder why bail rollers are necessary nowadays.  Why not just a chunk of ceramic?
 
-J

Probably marketing and capitalism?

So after the revolution, no more line rollers?

[JasonGotaProblem]

Take sets of ceramic, high end stainless, and Ali Baba specials.  Remove all shields, clean completely and cast all three sets running dry  with  the same reel.  I'll bet that one of us is going to be surprised. 
 
-J

I'm a set of garbage 3x10x4 bearings away from being able to perform this test. I may have to hit fasteddy in the name of science.

[philaroman]

I may have to hit fasteddy in the name of science.

oh, just hit fasteddy for selling crap...  caveat venditor!!!

[Brewcrafter]

Regardless of this great thread and our analytics, Fisherman2 definitely saw an improvement in performance/feel/sensitivity with the replaced bearing.  And for those of us that play around the salt a ceramic can certainly have some advantages as pointed out above.  Bottom line is feeling comfortable with tools that you have at hand. - john

[Fisherman2]

Regarding RPMs,

Let's do some math:

1. First  multiply the roller diameter by pi to get the amount of line per roller revolution.

For example, 8mm diameter is about 25 mm per revolution, or 0.025 meters.

2.  Pick a max speed for the run.

I will go with 15kph, which is way on the fast side. Translate that into minutes and we get about 240 meters per minute. So almost three football fields worth of line in one minute at top speed.

3.  Divide  to get RPMs

Divide 240 by 0.025 and we get a burst of 9600 RPMs.  meh.  Nothing for a ball bearing.

Maximum RPM rating for a small stainless ball bearing of decent quality is probably somewhere north of 50,000 RPM.

Regarding interactions of other lubricants with  TSI 321: A no-no with grease, ok with some oils.  check out this thread: https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=32359.0

-J

I would say large Pelagics/sharks will hit closer to 30-50kph for a bit running

Charlie

Here is how I came up with 15 KPH:

There is a bit of debate about how fast these fish really swim.  But the scientists  throw around 10-20 fork lengths per second short burst speed for smaller scrombroids, and something around 5 for swimming fast-  based on measuring fish in a tank,   The problem is once you get into bigger fish, there is a question of how a fish can swim 50KPH+ without shredding the fins from cavitation.

And then we have to account for drag from the reel and the line in the water,

the other way of looking at it is that if we were to triple that 15 KPM in my estimate, that would mean that the fish would have gone about three football fields distance in 20 seconds (or one in 6.3 seconds). I don't think that is going to happen in real life, and if it were to happen, you aren't stopping that fish with a Saragossa.  The last thing that you need to worry about is line roller performance. But you would still be well within the bearing specs.
 
But feel free to plug into the equation  whatever numbers you are think are more suitable/accurate, and see if you are pushing the bearing toward the RPM limits.

-J
 

I must mention that I like to use smaller reels than most people, and I must say that even smaller fish (especially reef fish) will dive really hard.

This with smaller line rollers on smaller reels means a very high RPM.

A really good example of fish I'm talking about is the Australian Snapper, a big one on a 2500-4000 will result in insane dashes.. I'm sure as hell it's more than 15kph

- charlie

[Fisherman2]

Regardless of this great thread and our analytics, Fisherman2 definitely saw an improvement in performance/feel/sensitivity with the replaced bearing.  And for those of us that play around the salt a ceramic can certainly have some advantages as pointed out above.  Bottom line is feeling comfortable with tools that you have at hand. - john

They're definitely more responsive, I'm really quite impressed by them.

The corrosion resistance is a huge bonus too.

If you're willing, get a cheap ceramic bearing online just to have a inspection of them and see what you think, should be only $10

[jurelometer]

Take sets of ceramic, high end stainless, and Ali Baba specials.  Remove all shields, clean completely and cast all three sets running dry  with  the same reel.  I'll bet that one of us is going to be surprised. 
 
-J

I'm a set of garbage 3x10x4 bearings away from being able to perform this test. I may have to hit fasteddy in the name of science.

Come to think of it, probably better to lightly TSI the stainless bearings.  Bare should get you the best performance, but unlike ceramics, you can't really use stainless without some lubricant in real life, as the friction scars the surfaces.

While I am in the "probably not" camp on a performance benefit with a spinning reel bail, I found this discussion useful, as if forced me to challenge some of what I thought I knew about ceramics, and did a bit more research.

The bicycle guys have the most interesting discussions on ceramic bearings.  And there are some tests.  If you put x amount of torque in and get y amount out, then the loss (in watts) tells you about the efficiency of the bearings.  Some observations that I have gleaned:

• The bearing preload (axial load) has to be set correctly and is more important to get right with ceramics. if you don't get the preload right, the cage can move with one of the races instead of "floating" which wears out the bearing (this might be more of an issue with grease)
• For both types of bearings, lubricant (grease in this case) is the greatest source of  lost energy, followed by seals, then cages. The actual loss from the rolling balls is a very small fraction (like 5% or so of the total loss)
• Ceramic balls being lighter, take less energy to roll.  That is one of the reasons for hybrids (steel races/cages and ceramic balls)
• Even in a pristine environment, not all ceramics have better efficiency than all stainless. There is a very big difference in friction in material, manufacturing and quality control.  So a cheap generic ceramic is going to create much more friction than a halfway decent stainless bearing.
• Pure ceramic bearings with non-metal cages are not the best performers because the (non-metal) plastic cages can deform, especially at higher loads or RPMs
• The fastest mini bearings that I could find were NSKs for dental drills.  Ceramic balls, everything else 440c stainless.  500K RPMs continuous operation!
• Since ceramic doesn't flex much, it can't handle the same loads as stainless.

My guess is that tournament casters are getting most of the benefit from ceramics by being able to avoid lubricant friction by running them dry, not because the bearings themselves have that much lower friction.

-J

[jurelometer]

I must mention that I like to use smaller reels than most people, and I must say that even smaller fish (especially reef fish) will dive really hard.

This with smaller line rollers on smaller reels means a very high RPM.

A really good example of fish I'm talking about is the Australian Snapper, a big one on a 2500-4000 will result in insane dashes.. I'm sure as hell it's more than 15kph

- charlie

You might want to measure the roller.  The line roller bearing diameter for the 2500 Stella is 7mm, so probably closer to 9 or 10 for the roller diameter if the Saragosa is similar.

But I was probably being too clever.  If the performance that you are looking for is when the fish is running- bearing speed is not an issue.  a 100m run (way too long for a sea bream AKA Australasian Snapper) is only going make around 3000 rotations of that bearing. That is about as insignificant as you can get for a bearing.  So bearing wear/damage from a "fast" fish is not going to be an issue.

The more important point: If the fish is running, you are using a high friction mechanism (drag) to slow it. A minuscule amount of additional friction from the line roller bearing is irrelevant. If it was more than minuscule, you would not notice anyways, as you set the drag to the desired combined load.

But I did notice that Shimano does tend to surround the line roller bearing with "seals" on the high end spinners.  In addition to making more friction than the bearing, theses seals for rotation on a shaft are good at keeping most of the water out.  The problem is that the same thing happens in reverse.  The seals are also good at trapping most of that little bit of water that got in. If the Saragosas  have a reputation for corroding line roller bearings, full ceramic might be worth trying.  The good news is that you can lube them up to get rid of the noise,  probably without suffering any performance loss.

Regardless of this great thread and our analytics, Fisherman2 definitely saw an improvement in performance/feel/sensitivity with the replaced bearing.  And for those of us that play around the salt a ceramic can certainly have some advantages as pointed out above.  Bottom line is feeling comfortable with tools that you have at hand. - john

Well... as salty fly fisher, I am the last guy to try and somebody that he is using the wrong tool for the job

But Charlie did ask what we thought, and I think it is useful to point out some challenges to his theory, in case others are considering.  Glad that he posted and defended his theory. I think that we all learned a bit.

-J

[JasonGotaProblem]

This has been a great thread. And if i do go forward with my Pepsi challenge I would probably do it with TSI in all. A steel bearing dry in a salty environment is not a valid long term plan. A dry crap bearing is an even worse long term plan. Or multiple trip plan. But apples to apples to apples, I'd TSI the ceramics too.

Also to OP a lot of shimano line rollers have pressed in bearings. If yours does too you'll need a press.

[jurelometer]

This has been a great thread. And if i do go forward with my Pepsi challenge I would probably do it with TSI in all. A steel bearing dry in a salty environment is not a valid long term plan. A dry crap bearing is an even worse long term plan. Or multiple trip plan. But apples to apples to apples, I'd TSI the ceramics too.

Also to OP a lot of shimano line rollers have pressed in bearings. If yours does too you'll need a press.

Shouldn't it be no TSI in the ceramics?  Isn't that how the tournament guys cast them? It is apples to apples in terms of how  people actually use them.

I am not sure what  the interference fit is for a pressed in full ceramic, but it has to be tiny.

-J

[Fisherman2]

I must mention that I like to use smaller reels than most people, and I must say that even smaller fish (especially reef fish) will dive really hard.

This with smaller line rollers on smaller reels means a very high RPM.

A really good example of fish I'm talking about is the Australian Snapper, a big one on a 2500-4000 will result in insane dashes.. I'm sure as hell it's more than 15kph

- charlie

You might want to measure the roller.  The line roller bearing diameter for the 2500 Stella is 7mm, so probably closer to 9 or 10 for the roller diameter if the Saragosa is similar.

But I was probably being too clever.  If the performance that you are looking for is when the fish is running- bearing speed is not an issue.  a 100m run (way too long for a sea bream AKA Australasian Snapper) is only going make around 3000 rotations of that bearing. That is about as insignificant as you can get for a bearing.  So bearing wear/damage from a "fast" fish is not going to be an issue.

The more important point: If the fish is running, you are using a high friction mechanism (drag) to slow it. A minuscule amount of additional friction from the line roller bearing is irrelevant. If it was more than minuscule, you would not notice anyways, as you set the drag to the desired combined load.

But I did notice that Shimano does tend to surround the line roller bearing with "seals" on the high end spinners.  In addition to making more friction than the bearing, theses seals for rotation on a shaft are good at keeping most of the water out.  The problem is that the same thing happens in reverse.  The seals are also good at trapping most of that little bit of water that got in. If the Saragosas  have a reputation for corroding line roller bearings, full ceramic might be worth trying.  The good news is that you can lube them up to get rid of the noise,  probably without suffering any performance loss.

Regardless of this great thread and our analytics, Fisherman2 definitely saw an improvement in performance/feel/sensitivity with the replaced bearing.  And for those of us that play around the salt a ceramic can certainly have some advantages as pointed out above.  Bottom line is feeling comfortable with tools that you have at hand. - john

Well... as salty fly fisher, I am the last guy to try and somebody that he is using the wrong tool for the job

But Charlie did ask what we thought, and I think it is useful to point out some challenges to his theory, in case others are considering.  Glad that he posted and defended his theory. I think that we all learned a bit.

-J

I must mention that I like to use smaller reels than most people, and I must say that even smaller fish (especially reef fish) will dive really hard.

This with smaller line rollers on smaller reels means a very high RPM.

A really good example of fish I'm talking about is the Australian Snapper, a big one on a 2500-4000 will result in insane dashes.. I'm sure as hell it's more than 15kph

- charlie

You might want to measure the roller.  The line roller bearing diameter for the 2500 Stella is 7mm, so probably closer to 9 or 10 for the roller diameter if the Saragosa is similar.

But I was probably being too clever.  If the performance that you are looking for is when the fish is running- bearing speed is not an issue.  a 100m run (way too long for a sea bream AKA Australasian Snapper) is only going make around 3000 rotations of that bearing. That is about as insignificant as you can get for a bearing.  So bearing wear/damage from a "fast" fish is not going to be an issue.

The more important point: If the fish is running, you are using a high friction mechanism (drag) to slow it. A minuscule amount of additional friction from the line roller bearing is irrelevant. If it was more than minuscule, you would not notice anyways, as you set the drag to the desired combined load.

But I did notice that Shimano does tend to surround the line roller bearing with "seals" on the high end spinners.  In addition to making more friction than the bearing, theses seals for rotation on a shaft are good at keeping most of the water out.  The problem is that the same thing happens in reverse.  The seals are also good at trapping most of that little bit of water that got in. If the Saragosas  have a reputation for corroding line roller bearings, full ceramic might be worth trying.  The good news is that you can lube them up to get rid of the noise,  probably without suffering any performance loss.

Regardless of this great thread and our analytics, Fisherman2 definitely saw an improvement in performance/feel/sensitivity with the replaced bearing.  And for those of us that play around the salt a ceramic can certainly have some advantages as pointed out above.  Bottom line is feeling comfortable with tools that you have at hand. - john

Well... as salty fly fisher, I am the last guy to try and somebody that he is using the wrong tool for the job

But Charlie did ask what we thought, and I think it is useful to point out some challenges to his theory, in case others are considering.  Glad that he posted and defended his theory. I think that we all learned a bit.

-J

I just typed out a big response but for some reason the website refreshed and it was lost! 

The thing is most important in difference to SS bearings to me is the initial startup responsiveness, definitely noticeable to me.

Another species worth mentioning is large squid, they can really pull hard and fast momentarily

- charlie

[Fisherman2]

This has been a great thread. And if i do go forward with my Pepsi challenge I would probably do it with TSI in all. A steel bearing dry in a salty environment is not a valid long term plan. A dry crap bearing is an even worse long term plan. Or multiple trip plan. But apples to apples to apples, I'd TSI the ceramics too.

Also to OP a lot of shimano line rollers have pressed in bearings. If yours does too you'll need a press.

I am currently using the Shimano spray oil for bearings, seems alright.

I haven't had any issues with pressed bearings? Seem to be fine dissembling and reassembling them just fine?

- charlie