New Knot ?

[gstours]

In a parallel picture in my findings with working with uniform building codes, its stated that an electrical wire pulled in conduit can not exceed 360 degrees from a pull box to another box.
  like a 90 degree bend, 4 45's and then another 90 bend thats it....... you will also find that the stranded wire is much less stiff than solid wire. So what does wire have to do with fishing line??
  Its that we have discovered that a double wrap/turn in even floppy braid shows quite a bit more resistance to pulling of the bitter end.  I used to think that doubling the line or at least making two wraps would make the same knot stronger than a single wrap like on a hook or swivel.
  Most times when a knot has failed its a catastrophic failure. Cabam!  Its difficult to see exactly where,  butt the tag end did not slip out of the knot. 
So does it stand to reason that fewer wraps or turns could have been used? Assuming the knot broke under the true line strength.
  Again this may depend more on the type and diameter of the line?  At least people seem to agree on heavier lines needing fewer wraps than light lines.  Is this because of stiffness and more resistant to stretch and deformation?
It seems like a bend in fishing line has weakened it more than a wrap?  A snell seems to have no bends only bends..  Is this true?  Is this something that is not practical yet in our thinking?
This goes back to how this Toit fella got here in the first place.  He claims he invented a knot using his science problem solving in designing his knot that works on all types of fishing lines that we have problems with.  Yet maybe we need to treat different types of lines with different types of knots?
  Thanks for your comments and information.  gst.
 
 

[jurelometer]

I think that the main answer is that unlike torus knots used in the math for knot theory, real world knots are complicated beasts with lots of interal interactions going on, so you can't rely on simply counting the number of bends.

In a parallel picture in my findings with working with uniform building codes, its stated that an electrical wire pulled in conduit can not exceed 360 degrees from a pull box to another box.
  like a 90 degree bend, 4 45's and then another 90 bend thats it....... you will also find that the stranded wire is much less stiff than solid wire. So what does wire have to do with fishing line??

Not too much, I think.  In the case of conduit, I think we we are mostly much dealing with cumulative surface friction from the wire coating rubbing on the inside of the conduit  at the bends.  Monofilament knots are much more complicated, dealing with bends and curves that create much of their resistance by squeezing/squashing the line into different  out of round shapes, basically using kinetic energy (pulling on the line) to reshape plastic. If it takes more energy to reshape the plastic at the tag end than you are providing from pulling, the knot holds.

Stranded wire, like laid rope and  braid, can spread out and lay flat around a bend, requiring less deformation, but the load is not distributed evenly.  Unlike nylon fishing line, Copper wire is not ideal for repeated bending, so the fatigue factor is different.  Apples and oranges to some extent.

Its that we have discovered that a double wrap/turn in even floppy braid shows quite a bit more resistance to pulling of the bitter end.  I used to think that doubling the line or at least making two wraps would make the same knot stronger than a single wrap like on a hook or swivel.
  Most times when a knot has failed its a catastrophic failure. Cabam!  Its difficult to see exactly where,  butt the tag end did not slip out of the knot. 
So does it stand to reason that fewer wraps or turns could have been used? Assuming the knot broke under the true line strength.

Sort of, but not exactly.

Think of it this way:  If you pull a piece of standing line around the tag, the part of the standing line  on the outside of the curve has to cover more distance than the inside part if it is to maintain its round cross sectional shape.  But it can't,  because that would require adding more volume of material. 

So instead, the outside of the lime moves closer to the inside, and the line deforms into an oval shape. Also, now that the cross section is not uniform, depending on the direction pulled, it might stretch and thin more than other parts of the line at the same load.  Now combine that with twists and other bends and wraps to create a gauntlet of interlocking and interacting shapes that provides resistance to pulling the tag through. Determining exactly which combinations of wraps, twists and bends that can be removed to improve, degrade, or leave the knot unchanged is not always straightforward.

Again this may depend more on the type and diameter of the line?  At least people seem to agree on heavier lines needing fewer wraps than light lines.  Is this because of stiffness and more resistant to stretch and deformation?

This one has bothered me too.  You would think that it might take more effort to tighten a knot with thicker or harder line, but the relative results should be the same if you manage to tighten the knot to the same shape.  It is possible that we simply don't do as good a job tightening the knot in these cases. If not,  I don't have a clue.

It seems like a bend in fishing line has weakened it more than a wrap?  A snell seems to have no bends only bends..  Is this true?  Is this something that is not practical yet in our thinking?

A bend causes greater deformation than a wrap. This results in a thinner cross section, less material, and especially when you toss in a twist, a weak spot. A wrap is has a much smaller difference in radius from the inside to the outside of the curve.

This goes back to how this Toit fella got here in the first place.  He claims he invented a knot using his science problem solving in designing his knot that works on all types of fishing lines that we have problems with.  Yet maybe we need to treat different types of lines with different types of knots?
  Thanks for your comments and information.  gst.
 

The knot guy in the videos is being sciency, but I am not so sure he is being scientifc.  I am not sold on any of his explanations.  He has basically come up with a knot that slips more than most, and tested it in a way that probably favors knots that slip, did a small run of samples with highly variable results.  All of  which tells us... not too much.

-J

[JasonGotaProblem]

He did us a favor though, by being sciency. It gave us something to meaningfully analyze, that's the point of science. Even if he fell short of being rigorous in his analysis. If all he did was post "here's this new knot, I think it's pretty cool. Check out these pics of fish I landed with it." (Which is usually the level one gets from the internet) then this discussion wouldn't have been very interesting.

[jurelometer]

True. But being sciency is all about using science as a prop not as a process.  So the data here is pretty meager.

And thanks to Gary for guiding us through an interesting discussion.

I don't get annoyed by flawed attempts at the scientific method. No experiment is perfect.  When I sense that someone is doing the razzle-dazzle/"trust me, I am a scientist" spiel, it pisses me off.  We all rely on the vast majority of researchers that treat science as a serious endeavor. If we end up assuming that all science based claims are snake oil, it can turn into a self fulfilling prophecy.

I don't know the guy making the videos, so I don't want to be too harsh.  I would guess that he has probably convinced himself that he has proven something. I'm not convinced.

-J

[gstours]

Thanks to all,  in my humble earlier statement.
Quote from: gstours on January 26, 2024, 11:53:44 AM
In a parallel picture in my findings with working with uniform building codes, its stated that an electrical wire pulled in conduit can not exceed 360 degrees from a pull box to another box.
  like a 90 degree bend, 4 45's and then another 90 bend thats it....... you will also find that the stranded wire is much less stiff than solid wire. So what does wire have to do with fishing line??
 
  Electrical wire somewhat like a fishing line or rope/thread/etc with every bend and turn deviating from strait line will add some resistance to the bitter ends. Even if its not in a conduit. in the conduit we think also of friction of the outside diameter, certainly this is multiplied with multiple wires pulled at the same time.  So much that a lubricant is generally added the exterior of the bundle to reduce friction in the fairly smooth round tube.  Thats all that stuck in my mind. 
  I have learned some different ways to look at this knot subject.