Tuning a Penn Spinfisher

[slugmeister]

I've been playing a lot with the old Penn spinfishers this year and I've learned a lot. I've learned some things that I have not seen mentioned so hopefully this helps somebody.

I currently own a small handful of reels, a 722, 722z, 712, 712z, 710, and 710z. No I did not intentionally get one green and one z of each, it just worked out that way. I'm sure anyone looking has noticed, but the 716 and 714, people are asking beyond ridiculous prices. I love these reels, but for $200 you can buy a better reel.  The 420ss and 430ss are not any cheaper either. I don't have much of an opinion on the 706. As of now, you can still get a good 722, 712, 710, and 704 for under $50. I don't know that I've paid over $40 for any of mine, but there is also shipping cost.  They might not be quite as bullet proof, but I feel like most people would be plenty happy with a 722 instead of a 714 or 420ss. Alternatively I would suggest you try the 710, it's bigger, but you might just find you like it. I've never tried a 720, but its the exact same as the 722, but with a 4:1 gear ratio. the 722 has a 5:1 ratio. There's also left hand versions like the 711, which if you are left handed might save some money.

When it comes to line you often hear about how only mono is ok, except Fireline for some reason is ok even though its a fused braid. I don't know about all that, but I have different braids on every one of mine and there's nothing wrong. I have Powerpro 10# on my 722. I don't remember what is on my 722z, but its a braid. My 712 has 20# power pro. My 710 has 30# Spiderwire Durabraid. My 710z has 50# Berkley X9. They lay line in a slight figure 8, but it's not bad. Most pictures online make it looks worse than it is, but still, I can't figure out what problem it causes because I haven't found any. It's not really a spinfisher, but I also have a Penn 550SS which has similar internals, and it is spooled with I think 40# power pro, it too works just fine. These reels work good with mono too of course. These spinfishers still cast farther and have less issues with braid than with monofilament. In my opinion, unless you have a reason to want to use monofilament as a main line, these reels work better with braid.

That might sound like a rant, but it sets up my first tuning tip. This one is no secret, but it's two parts. That is shimming the spool so the line lays level on the spool. If you have a reel that lays line more on the bottom, or more on the top, it's not going to work as good as it can. If you shim your spool so it lays line level, these work just fine with any line. If they lay line more on top, then you add spacers. If they lay line more on bottom, then you remove spacers. I don't remember off the top of my head exactly, but I think my 710, 712z, and 722z all lay line perfectly fine with the original teflon washer they come with under the spool. I know I added a shim to my 722 in the form of a spare drag washer I had laying around. On my 710z it was laying line more on the bottom, so I had to remove spacers. I did not try it with no washer at all, bras on the aluminum spool might be fine. I ended up making a thin shim from .005" thick mylar plastic to replace my teflon spacer, and it lays perfectly that way. This isn't rocket science, they just have to be kind of close. I can fully recommend adding a drag washer if you need a spacer, or making a thin mylar spacer if you need less.

The second part of this is that spacer does effect your drag. To most it probably will not matter, but if you want to get the strongest drag you can which is also smooth, then replace that teflon washer, it is more slick than you would think. I don't care about maximum drag, so most of my reels have carbon fiber drag washers up top, but still have the Teflon spacer under the spool. This produces a very smooth drag. If you replace the teflon with a carbon fiber (or add one on top if you need extra spacers), this increases the maximum drag you get from the reel. I am not using grease on my spacers, but I always grease the drag washers in the spool. I want the smoothest drag I can get. Those trying to maximize drag might want to use no grease at all. I found the mylar shim also increases drag over the teflon, yet produces a smooth drag. One last little tid bit about drags, some reels come with dimpled steel or brass washers for the top, which allow the drag knob to have click adjustments. I really like these, and I would recommend people find those washers if your reel came with smooth ones.

One of the biggest complaints you hear about with these reels is the bails. There's the fact they are automatic only, and there's also the complaint they can flip closed during cast. Both my 722 and 722z I have cut the bail wire so they are manual pickup now. Both my 710 and 710z I have left alone, but they could easily be cut manual pickup. The 712's, I do not think they would perform good as manual pickup. The line roller is set very low on the rotor, the line guide is actually below the top lip of the rotor, the line goes through a cut out in the rotor. Maybe it would work, but I suspect it would be sub par. As for manual pickup on suitable reels such as the 722's, 710's, and 704's, it works fine. I suspect it would be fine on the 714 too, and the 720 is the same as the 722. I'm unsure on the 716. You can easily take the line out, cast with full confidence, and then put the line back on the guide. It doesn't take long to get used to it. I suspect it would not be quite as enjoyable with monofilament, but with braid as limp as it is, it works pretty good.

Alternatively I've found some things to make using the bail not just workable, but enjoyable. First it comes with the caveat that your reel doesn't have mechanical issues. If your bail spring, or bail release arm spring are worn out, then it's never going to work right. They also have to be clean of course. Sand doesn't seem to be a big issue, but corrosion and fine dust certainly can. Once you are sure your reel is in good order, the first tuning tip I have is to rotate your bearing retainer plate. You can put it on in three positions, and it does make a big difference. This is easier to show than explain, but the bump which activates the bail release is what you want to adjust. Generally people open the bail with the line roller right at their finger, we will call that 12 o clock looking down on the reel from the top. If you have the bearing plate turned so the bail releases at about 2 o clock, I get a lot of accidental trips. During a cast the spool can rotate from torque, or even just the reel handle and having that release so close is asking for issues. If you turn it 1/3rd (3 screws on the plate), it will now release the bail at about 6 o clock. I find this is the sweet spot for me which I will tell why in the next paragraph. I don't get accidental trips here, at least I haven't yet. You can also turn it 1/3rd more, and the bail will trip at about 10 o clock. The only trick to this position is your line roller has to be all the way at 12 o clock to open. If you try to open the bail any earlier the release is already over the spot so it won't lock open. I'm sure you would get used to that quick. The advantage is you would just about guarantee the bail would not accidentally close. The downside is you now have to turn the reel so much farther to close the bail after a cast.

While these are automatic only bails, I've found ways to close them without the reel handle. On the 710, the bail release is big enough you can just push it with your thumb to manually close it. It actually works pretty good. The 722's is kind of small, it's not easy to do, maybe with small fingers. If you could add a small knob or handle to it that would certainly work. The 712 it's not really an option since their bail release is on the opposite side and it's not easy to push either. So at least for the 710 only, you can manually close them with no modifications. Alternatively what I've been doing is after a cast, take the rotor in the palm of your hand and in quick motion roll that rotor and it will rotate far enough to close the bail. You are essentially doing the same thing you would if you used the reel handle, but you don't have to reach for the handle, turn it, move your hand back, grab the line to pull it tight, and then back to the handle to reel. I suppose there's other ways to do it too. When I cast my hand is right on the rotor and many times I'll thumb the spool to control the cast. Most of the time I fully brake the line before the lure hits the water so the line is already taught. Then just snap the wrist and the bail is closed, really no different than a manual close bail, except you aren't grabbing the bail.

I don't know if this counts as tuning, but going back to braided lines and issues people have. All of my reels, even my bait casters all have monofilament backing on them because I don't need the full line capacity. This works great. If you are somebody who wants the maximum line capacity you can do that too, and I'm surprised this isn't common knowledge. All you need to do is take a small bit of electrical tape and stick it on the bottom of your spool. It really is that easy, just a small tape maybe 1/2" wide by 1" long is all it takes and braid tied directly to the spool will not rotate when you do this. You can use 100% braid on any reel like this.

Hopefully this helps, I'll update with more tuning tricks if I think of any more.

[Brewcrafter]

Nice notes!  Only comment I would make - yes, back in the day electrical tape was a "go-to" for creating a non-slip arbor before the advent of "braid ready" spools, and I did it many times.  Elsewhere on the forum you can see where "The Boss" has posted photos of some of the downsides of electrical tape in a saltwater environment.  For me my "goto" now in those situations is a couple wraps of 'flex wrap' finger tape, and a light coating of grease on the deeper parts of the spool, although I suspect if a reel is not regularly maintained it probably doesn't matter what you put on there.  Great write up! - john

[quang tran]

Enjoy to read your note about Peen spinfisher ,It make me to dig out my 712z that I bought long time ago , never put line on it .What is the different between 712 and 712z ? For the same size spool with Dam 220 , 712z is much more heavier but it's quality reel I may start fish with it .Other Peen that I use more often is 4300ss and 4500ss 

[slugmeister]

I'm not the best person to ask, but I have done some research this year on the Penn reels. I think it explains some things. It seems hard to get exact dates since some sources disagree. I did find this spreadsheet from oc1 which lists a bunch of years. https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,31112.msg385000.html#new

I do question some of the dates. We know the 700 was the first of the spinfishers, the first Penn spinning reel ever in fact. Right on the Penn website it says 1961 is the year it came out, so I have to doubt the spreadsheets date of 1963. Along with that I have found an online copy of the Penn 1963 catalog, and in that, the 710 is listed as new, so I can only assume the 700 came before 1963, and that was the year the 710 came out. So the 710 was right there as one of the originals. It was a full 5 years according to the spreadsheet before another spinfisher came out. I'll just list them below in the order I think they came out. Sorry, I'm going to skip the left hand (right side handle) versions, but the were scattered in the in between years.

700-1961
710-1963
720-1968
722-1969
704-1969
712-1971
706-1975
714-1975
716-1975

750ss-1977
450ss-1978
550ss-1978
650ss-1978

All the original spinfishers (except the 700/702 which was dropped) became the Z series in 1978

I think it's so odd the 720/722's came out before the 714/716's but that's for another day. You will notice the 710 and 712 are 8 years apart. They share the same lower body, it's only the top end that is different. I think that's the reason the 712 is what it is. It was an afterthought. The rotor is kind of goofy, the bail setup is goofy. Plus they are a little chunky since it's a 710 body.

Still, is it really as bad as we perceive? For actual size the 712 is comparable to about a 4000 size reel today. The Line capacity is somewhere between 3000 and 4000 depending on what brand you are looking at. I had a Shimano Sienna 4000 and a Penn Fierce 4000 laying around so I weighted them. The Shimano is all plastic, it's as light as you could get and it's 11.9 ounces. The Fierce is all metal body, but it's pretty light duty. It's 13.5 ounces. The Penn 712 is 15 ounces. So yes, it's heavier, but not by a mile. In terms of size, the 712 should be comparable to a 430SS. The 710 comparable to a 450SS. If anything I might guess the SS series is heavier, but I'd have to check. The only one I have is a 550SS. You do have the 4300SS though, which is a later model with a graphite body, and I assume it's lighter.

I think the 712 is a fine reel, but personally I would take the 714 if they weren't so crazy expensive. Honestly I think a 722 will do pretty much all a 712 needs to do, and if that's not enough, just get the OG, the 710.

As for the difference between a 712 and 712z, not really anything besides paint. Certain models have some changes over the years, not just when they went to the Z series. The 710 for example, almost all of the originals had plastic spools. Most were green, a few were black. I think I've even seen some maroon or tan ones. Once the 710 became the 710z they all had gold anodized aluminum spools and were painted black. I'm not aware of any model having any real mechanical changes internally.

[slugmeister]

@Brewcrafter, you will have to fill me in as I only fish freshwater. Does the electrical tape turn gummy in salt water? If it makes any difference, I'm sure all I've used is 3M  33+, since that's pretty much the only tape I carry besides colored tape. It might have been super 88, but I never buy that at home. I've taken line off reels I'm sure were on there 10 years and the tape was still good enough I could have left it on there if I wanted. I can understand why the flex wrap works though, it does the same thing without the strong adhesive. Why use grease though?

[quang tran]

Thank you Slugmeister

[Midway Tommy]

I strongly disagree with the use of monofilament as a backing if one doesn't need all the line a spool is capable of holding.

Mono has way too much weather related expansion and contraction. Mono backing is a great way to crack or pop the front off of the spool, even aluminum spools have been known to crack or break when mono goes all the way to the stem.

I only feel the need to have 120 yds of top line for the fishing I do so anything more than that is compensated buy the use of an arbor, or preferably dacron backing, which is relatively cheep and lasts for a decade or two before it needs to be replaced.

[quang tran]

I strongly disagree with the use of monofilament as a backing if one doesn't need all the line a spool is capable of holding.

Mono has way too much weather related expansion and contraction. Mono backing is a great way to crack or pop the front off of the spool, even aluminum spools have been known to crack or break when mono goes all the way to the stem.

I only feel the need to have 120 yds of top line for the fishing I do so anything more than that is compensated buy the use of an arbor, or preferably dacron backing, which is relatively cheep and lasts for a decade or two before it needs to be replaced.

I always told that you have to use mono backing to prevent line slip ,I also use mono to fill up about half spoon before tight on braid .Mono don't absorb water that may cause rust in spool

[Midway Tommy]

Whoever told you that gave you some bad advice. 

[Brewcrafter]

@Brewcrafter, you will have to fill me in as I only fish freshwater. Does the electrical tape turn gummy in salt water? If it makes any difference, I'm sure all I've used is 3M  33+, since that's pretty much the only tape I carry besides colored tape. It might have been super 88, but I never buy that at home. I've taken line off reels I'm sure were on there 10 years and the tape was still good enough I could have left it on there if I wanted. I can understand why the flex wrap works though, it does the same thing without the strong adhesive. Why use grease though?

For freshwater, your concerns are NOT the same level as the salty guys!  The concern being that electrical tape can trap residue that over time leads to corrosion on aluminum or metal spools (I did a quick search but could not find the post from Alan I was looking for yet).  As far as the very mild layer of grease...
In a saltwater environment gives a layer of protection to the underlying metal....
If you do it on the "deep" areas of the reel, this is line that very infrequently gets dumped off the spool - up near the edges line abrasion of putting line off/on likely wipes off any protection (and may also have a downside of leaving residue on your line down toward the "business end" that could be detrimental to fish bites).  Over the years folks have used car wax, Chap Stick, you name it to help coat and protect spools.  Again, in freshwater your concerns are minimal!  Loving your in depth study on these Penn Spinners...thanks for the info- john

[quang tran]

Whoever told you that gave you some bad advice. 

So I should use a arbor or a spacer ,No body sell them anymore .I have lots of used braid line should I use it

[slugmeister]

I strongly disagree with the use of monofilament as a backing if one doesn't need all the line a spool is capable of holding.

Mono has way too much weather related expansion and contraction. Mono backing is a great way to crack or pop the front off of the spool, even aluminum spools have been known to crack or break when mono goes all the way to the stem.

I only feel the need to have 120 yds of top line for the fishing I do so anything more than that is compensated buy the use of an arbor, or preferably dacron backing, which is relatively cheep and lasts for a decade or two before it needs to be replaced.

I've been thinking how to respond to this, but I can't figure out a good way. People have spooled reels with 100% nylon monofilament for decades. What you have said is pure bologna. I'm not sure if you missed april fools day, or if this is some kind of running joke or what.

Now if we can ignore that ridiculousness, a 650 yard spool of Berkley Big game monofilament is under $10. Dacron is fine for backing too, but it's not cheap like it used to be. I swear even 10 years ago the stuff was the same price as mono. Now it's the same price as super braids. It looks like Spiderwire Durabraid is actually cheaper than Woodstock dacron!

[Brewcrafter]

Actually, Tommy is spot on.  Yes - mono has been used for decades (I should know, I have been around for quite a few of them) and has been used with no issues.  And elsewhere in this forum (and Jurlometer has a great breakdown of the physics) mono line can cause problems, especially with plastic or composite spools.  Reason being it has stretch, and with that comes contraction.  Metal spools are pretty much immune to this, but the best materials for backing are inert ones like Dacron, Spectra, or even spool arbors made of wood or cork like what many old spinners came with.  You can reproduce this effect yourself fairly easy; take some quality mono of a given strength, and it is fairly easy to stretch it under minimal tension.  Mark two lines on a pencil, dowel, etc about 1" apart, and tightly wrap 1 layer of mono around this (heavier mono will make it even more apparent).  When you do that the line becomes thinner (basically you have the same amount of material, but now stretched over a longer distance).  When the tension that causes that is relaxed, the line contracts to its original state and the diameter increases.  When you release the tension on that mono that you just wrapped around the pencil/dowel etc. over that inch or so - you will now see that it increases in length by a fraction over those marks that you wound it under tension to (assuming that it is still 1 layer)  Multiply that effect by many hundreds of wraps on a spool, and that expansion of layer upon layer can contain a LOT of energy.   Plastic spools historically cannot hold the tension, and will fail - this is a real thing. - john



 

[slugmeister]

I am certain lines stretch and contract, I don't doubt you there. There may be some absolute trash reels over the years that MIGHT have broken from being spooled with monofilament, although personally if my reel was that flimsy, I sure wouldn't be putting $20 of braid onto it. I would just use it until it broke. That was the case for plenty of reels I had as a kid, although I never once had a spool break. It's to the point I can't even call what you are saying a myth, because over my lifetime I'm sure I've talked to thousands and thousands of fisherman and women, and never once have I ever heard of a broken spool that didn't involve dropping it.

So again, to quote Midway Tommy "I strongly disagree with the use of monofilament as a backing if one doesn't need all the line a spool is capable of holding." That is a completely baseless claim that nobody else will make. Maybe it's different in California as is most things, but around here if you ask 500 people what they use for line backing, you will find some that don't use backing at all, many of those will be using 100% mono, but of the ones that do use backing, every single one of them will be using monofilament. Not a single one of them will have ever had their spools broken from monofilament. If you asked that same exact question in 1995 you would probably get 490 of them using 100% monofilament, and 10 running 100% dacron. You might have found a few guys using 100% straight fluorocarbon too. None of them would have had a broken spool from the line. I'm just pulling these numbers out of thin air of course, but your claims are beyond ridiculous.

Unless either of you two can provide any real evidence that any real numbers of broken spools can be blamed from monofilament, meaning more than 1 in 100 chance, please just stop.

[slugmeister]

Whoever told you that gave you some bad advice. 

So I should use a arbor or a spacer ,No body sell them anymore .I have lots of used braid line should I use it

You could use your used braid if you want. Or you can use monofilament. Around here Berkley Big Game is generally the cheapest, and it's still quality line. 10# is usually what I use for backing, but it's not super important. Just don't use something huge like 40# as that doesn't lay right unless you have a really big reel.