Nylon oscillation clip 8631 for Cardinal 6--Anything better?

Started by PhillyJoe, May 02, 2024, 07:54:02 PM

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PhillyJoe

Picked up a nice clean Cardinal 6 on ebay, lured in by discussion on this site. Didn't take much persuading, I admit...

Sadly and unsurprisingly, the nylon oscillation arm clip is broken. Maybe that is why the reel looks mostly unused?

There is a seller on ebay who has the part for $15 + $5 ship, which would be worth it to me to get this baby back up fishing but I am curious if there are any current suppliers of metal clips?

Somewhere on this site, I believe I read an old post discussing this issue and pointing to a guy in the UK, I believe.

There is another seller making 3-D printed replacements but I question the shear strength of printed parts based on past experiences. They also do not have the integral metal sleeve of the originals.  (edit--Seller is Mike's Reel Repair and material listed as "engineered resin" so maybe I'm underestimating the part. Also looks milled rather than printed to my unexpert eye.)

Any suggestions or should I just bite the bullet and go for the easy ebay replacement, OEM style part?

foakes

Hi Joe —-

I think that the nylon block would last likely 20-30 years in a "6", provided the reel gets just a basic service every few years.  So you would be probably OK with the plastic resin oscillation clip.

However, a lot of 6-7's are used in tougher conditions —- and a metal clip block would be superior.

With a 3 or 4, I wouldn't be so concerned —- but it is your call.

Here is a complete new factory arm and metal block.  $20 total, including shipping, to you ($15 + $5).  Everything is solidly attached already as a unit with no resin, or plastic pieces.

Best, Fred
The Official, Un-Authorized Service and Restoration Center for quality vintage spinning reels.

D-A-M Quick, Penn, Mitchell, and ABU/Zebco Cardinals

--------

The first rule of fishing is to fish where the fish are. The second rule of fishing is to never forget the first rule.

"Enjoy the little things in Life — For someday, you may look back — and realize that they were the big things"
                                                     Fred O.

jurelometer

QuoteThere is another seller making 3-D printed replacements but I question the shear strength of printed parts based on past experiences. They also do not have the integral metal sleeve of the originals.  (edit--Seller is Mike's Reel Repair and material listed as "engineered resin" so maybe I'm underestimating the part. Also looks milled rather than printed to my unexpert eye.)

Looks 3D printed to me.

"Engineered resin" probably means resin based 3D printing, where the part is made by zapping UV curing resins with a pinpoint light source.  These can be quite accurate, but generally not very strong parts, as the UV resin requirement limits the material used to flavors of epoxies and acrylics. A good quality FDM based 3D printer (the type that melts plastic filament) is capable of making stronger parts out of many types of plastic, including nylon.

The shearing force would be on the same plane as the the layers in a properly printed part.  This looks like a part that could successfully be FDM 3D printed in nylon, but the quality depends on who is doing the printing.  I would be reluctant to use a resin printed part. 

When Penn 720/722 crosswind blocks were unavailable for awhile, I 3D printed some and passed a few around to members. I asked for feedback on how they held up, got a little positive feedback, and nothing negative.

But now that Tom at Cortez is machining a 720/722 block(using  Ultem?), if anybody asked, I would probably just point them at Tom if they wanted a safe bet on a  durable part.

Worth taking Fred up on that offer.


-J

PhillyJoe

I'll definitely be taking Fred up on that offer. I wrote him about some DAM Quick parts also.

I got the clip from Mikes Reel Repair and it snapped into three pieces upon install.
i did apply some force with my finger to line up the clip with the shaft I didn't think I was overdoing it. This push was perpendicular to the pane of the layers and The predominant forces on the part would be in the pance of the layers...but I had to get it on first! :P

I have had similar experiences with printed parts my friend made for me to prototype some pro speaker parts. They could not stand any shear forces and delaminated almost immediately. And this was an (large and expensive)  FDM printer but I really can't attest to my friends skill and experience level with that machine! I think I was an early "customer!"

Given the otherwise outstanding quality of the Cardinal reels, It sure would be nice to have access to a stout metal replacement #8631.

foakes

I put them back in inventory, Joe —-
 
Will pull them back out.

Sorry the 3D printed part from Mike's fell apart.  Factory and metal all the way is the sure bet.

Got your address, and will mail off tomorrow, along with the DQ parts.

Too bushed today.  Just got back from Clovis & Fresno 15 minutes ago.

Put a new set of Michelin Defender 2's on the Outback at America's Tire.  $830.31

Got Chipper's claws manicured and cut.  $30

Walmart for Mobil 1 oil and a filter for the Outback, RoundUp, Ant Killer, some other small stuff.  $180.91

Home Depot for sprinkler repair stuff, air filters and spark plugs for the Honda mower, 30W oil, Miracle Grow, and other small stuff.  $152.39

Costco for Ribeyes, new stretch hose, Premier Protein drinks, Capris and Zories for Sue, and a few other items. $302.45

Ace Hardware for 40 lbs. of sunflower seeds.  $39.17

Marvels grocery store for 3 sacks of groceries.  $124.55

Auberry Feed Store for (2) 25 lb. Deer Protein Blocks.  $43.44

Gas fill-up at the Reservation.  $74.25.

9 stops and 124 miles round trip.

Probably kick back for the rest of the day before attending Church tonight.

Best, Fred

The Official, Un-Authorized Service and Restoration Center for quality vintage spinning reels.

D-A-M Quick, Penn, Mitchell, and ABU/Zebco Cardinals

--------

The first rule of fishing is to fish where the fish are. The second rule of fishing is to never forget the first rule.

"Enjoy the little things in Life — For someday, you may look back — and realize that they were the big things"
                                                     Fred O.

PhillyJoe

Many thanks indeed, Fred! No hurry whatsoever on my end. You and this whole site has been very helpful and educational for me and a great asset to my reel tinkering adventures although my studies here seem to result in a constant stream of reel-sized ebay packages...

Maybe I applied too much side force on that part from Mike's. I'd be more careful if I have to use another one.  I think cast or machined nylon would be a superior material but the printed part is better than nothing.




Catching Nemo

#6
The eBay seller in the UK that sells the metal oscillation block is username spike-nigel

I bought one from him in 2021 via his eBay listing and it cost me about $29.  I have not seen him posting items on eBay for a while

I've always wondered whether the white plastic kitchen cutting board material would work as a DIY material for this oscillation block. It seems like sufficiently durable material, but may be difficult to get the exact dimensions and alignment when drilling the thru holes

jurelometer

Cutting board material is either low to medium density polyethylene or polypropylene.  Both are rather soft and squishy, and are actually a bit difficult to work with to make small dimensionally accurate parts,  as the material will flex and melt easily from friction during machining.

If you wanted to DIY, Delrin (or any acetal) would be a better choice.  It has very good mechanical properties and is easy to machine properly. It is widely avalable. 

A 3D printing trick that is not used enough is to 3D print fixtures for holding/indexing stock to make more accurate parts out of other materials. 

I suspect that getting the part from Fred is the more economical and ultimately satisfactory approach, but if you want to try making your own part, I understand.  I am the same way.

-J

Catching Nemo

Quote from: jurelometer on May 17, 2024, 11:13:47 PMCutting board material is either low to medium density polyethylene or polypropylene.  Both are rather soft and squishy, and are actually a bit difficult to work with to make small dimensionally accurate parts,  as the material will flex and melt easily from friction during machining.

If you wanted to DIY, Delrin (or any acetal) would be a better choice.  It has very good mechanical properties and is easy to machine properly. It is widely avalable. 

A 3D printing trick that is not used enough is to 3D print fixtures for holding/indexing stock to make more accurate parts out of other materials. 

I suspect that getting the part from Fred is the more economical and ultimately satisfactory approach, but if you want to try making your own part, I understand.  I am the same way.

-J


Thanks Jurelometer.

I did a quick google search on cutting boards just now and a lot of the sites say that it's made of high density polyethylene HDPE.

Assuming some/many cutting boards are HDPE, would HDPE be any better or worst than the low- or medium density polyethylene or polypropylene that you talked about above?

jurelometer

About the same for your purposes in that all are not really acceptable. 

HDPE  is machinable. I've made large low tolerance (accuracy) parts out of it. The cutting tools have to be throwing off large chips and the feeds have to be high relative to the tool rotation speed (hint- you need specific cutters for soft plastics - Onsrud is a good source for more info, but one router bit will probably cost you the same or more than the whole metal oscillation arm from Fred) .  Mechanical  properties of HDPE are still kind off sucky for reel parts.  Delrin is cheap, readily available, and is a great plastic for machining into mechanical parts.

You could do it with a hand drill and a Swiss Army knife, but you are a better craftsman than I am if you can get something accurate enough to be a useful part.

The HDPE that I am used to is the marine stuff, like Starboard.  It seems to me to be harder than the cutting board stuff.  But even starboard is not a great choice.

-J

PhillyJoe

I'm the original poster and I saw the wisdom of picking up the part from Fred!

If I were going to fabricate one, I'd use Delrin or maybe Micarta. Have scraps of both lying around from electronics DIY projects. I have made parts out of HDPE cutting boards but that stuff tends to creep or flow and I found it actually harder to work with than the harder and more stable materials mentioned above. I've cut small parts out of Delrin to moderate levels of precision with Xacto mini saws.

I tried working with thick Nylon V sheet stock one time and it melted when cut with power saws or drills and quickly solidified to capture the tool like the sword in the stone!

Although I "self-identify" as a DIYer, if I'm not feeling the joy in making parts, I'll happily throw a few bucks on the counter for a pre-made one or something better than I can produce. Wisdom of age or just laziness? I'm not sure.


Here's a pic of the printed Mike's Reel clip and a crime scene photo of how/where it snapped. I anybody can make these out of brass or other non-reactive metal, I'll buy one!




foakes

If I was going to fabricate a block I would do it out of brass.

Easy to drill & grind & file & Dremel to the exact shape.

And it wouldn't break.

Plus, it would be softer than the steel shaft —- which is always a good thing for mating dissimilar metals together.

Best, Fred
The Official, Un-Authorized Service and Restoration Center for quality vintage spinning reels.

D-A-M Quick, Penn, Mitchell, and ABU/Zebco Cardinals

--------

The first rule of fishing is to fish where the fish are. The second rule of fishing is to never forget the first rule.

"Enjoy the little things in Life — For someday, you may look back — and realize that they were the big things"
                                                     Fred O.

Fishgolfman

Intriguing idea! I wonder if the penn 720/722 block would work as well in brass. I might try this

jurelometer

Quote from: Fishgolfman on Today at 08:41:00 PMIntriguing idea! I wonder if the penn 720/722 block would work as well in brass. I might try this
It depends on what material was used to make the pin on the main gear that the crosswind block slides on.  If it was stainless steel, a brass crosswind block is probably OK.  We want to ensure that any wear is on the block and not the pin. Plastic actually works pretty well.  The harder the block material, the more precise the entire mechanism needs to be. Plastic just wears in to run smoothly if the parts rare not aligned perfectly.

A bit trickier to make the 720/722 block by hand. The slide slot, shaft hole and  locking pin hole locations need to be relatively precise. Not difficult with a mill and some skill in fixturing, as I think that this part wound be  cut on three different planes.

If you give it a go, let us know how it turns out.

-J