Assistance with 114H Rebuild

[Fen]

Thanks for your input.  If I had it to do over again I would get the less expensive, all SS bearings but the package is on its way. I will post here if there are any issues.

Thanks again,
Fen

[Fen]

Well, I have everything cleaned-up and the new parts ordered from Mystic and Boca Bearings.  I thought I might try to get a few things clarified while I wait for the parts, that way I can start the fun stuff as soon as the parts arrive😊.

Most of my questions are related to the drag system. 



Arrangement of the Stack- below is a picture and description(from the Mystic Website) of the order of assembly for the fiber, keyed(K) and eared(E) washers(the added arrow is pointing in the order of assembly):





I believe my drag was likely reassembled incorrectly by the previous owner since the stack was arranged in exactly the reverse order with the metal keyed washer first against the Main Gear.  It makes sense that the fiber washer would be against the Main Gear so that is how I am planning on reassembling the drag washers.  Is this order for the drag washers correct?



Fiber Washer 4-- on my reel the fiber washer(no. 4 in the Parts Diagram) is a hard, smooth, possibly Delrin washer. Should this be a fiber washer rather than a hard Delrin washer?  I have ordered a replacement washer from Mystic just in case. 

Washer 86-- this is described as "KEYED METAL WASHER(3 required)" in the Parts List.  I have one, non-keyed, cupped, thick stainless washer similar to that shown in the Parts Diagram.  I am assuming that the description in the Parts List is an error, especially since the second reel that I have has the same single, thick, cupped washer. Is it correct to have a single washer and should the concave side face downward toward the stack?

Oil Fitting on Handle-should there be a oil fitting(spring and ball bearing like on the Handle Lock Screw) where the arrow is pointing? I don't see this on either reel but it seems to me I have seen this on other reels.

And finally, I believe it was mentioned here(post #14, foakes)that the drags should be greased with Cal's Tan Drag Grease.  I have ordered an ounce of Cal's Tan Grease.  Is there more than one type of Cal's Tan Grease and is it specifically made for drags or is it all the same product?
Also, do I really want to grease the drag washers!?  It seems a little bit like greasing the rims on a bicycle wheel with caliper brakes!!!

Thanks again for your help!

Fen

[foakes]

Hi Fen —-

While I have been repairing, servicing, and restoring reels for over 40 years —- there are many on our site who are real experts.  These are just my own experience and opinions—-

I believe my drag was likely reassembled incorrectly by the previous owner since the stack was arranged in exactly the reverse order with the metal keyed washer first against the Main Gear.  It makes sense that the fiber washer would be against the Main Gear so that is how I am planning on reassembling the drag washers.  Is this order for the drag washers correct?  Yes.

Fiber Washer 4-- on my reel the fiber washer(no. 4 in the Parts Diagram) is a hard, smooth, possibly Delrin washer. Should this be a fiber washer rather than a hard Delrin washer?  I have ordered a replacement washer from Mystic just in case.  For performance and longevity, either a Delrin or a CF under-gear washer just like the ones in the drag stack are what I use, and nearly everyone else on our site.  This is an under-appreciated and critical washer when applying drag.  The factory fiber washer will also work —- but under continued heavy usage it will distort, crack, and become ineffective. 

Washer 86-- this is described as "KEYED METAL WASHER(3 required)" in the Parts List.  I have one, non-keyed, cupped, thick stainless washer similar to that shown in the Parts Diagram.  I am assuming that the description in the Parts List is an error, especially since the second reel that I have has the same single, thick, cupped washer. Is it correct to have a single washer and should the concave side face downward toward the stack?  Yes, must be a typo likely, and the concave side down.

Oil Fitting on Handle-should there be a oil fitting(spring and ball bearing like on the Handle Lock Screw) where the arrow is pointing? I don't see this on either reel but it seems to me I have seen this on other reels.  They come either way.  On the larger reels that will see a lot of use on large fish in salt —- I prefer the oil fitting so that a reel doesn't need to be taken apart to lubricate the gear sleeve and bridge post when we are busy on the water.

And finally, I believe it was mentioned here(post #14, foakes)that the drags should be greased with Cal's Tan Drag Grease.  I have ordered an ounce of Cal's Tan Grease.  Is there more than one type of Cal's Tan Grease and is it specifically made for drags or is it all the same product?
Also, do I really want to grease the drag washers!?  It seems a little bit like greasing the rims on a bicycle wheel with caliper brakes!!!  Cal's is either tan for normal drag greasing or purple for lighter reels or reels used in very cold conditions.  Purple has a lower viscosity.  Either grease can be used also on the innards or your reels.  But Penn Blue, or Yamaha Marine blue is extremely effective also.  I use Yamaha.  It is used on the outdrives of vessels —- and since it can withstand the rigors of always being in the salt —- it will/is certainly effective in our reels.

Greasing the Carbon Fiber (CF) drag discs will eliminate any jerkiness or drag hesitations throughout the drag cycle from freespool to full lockup.  And in many cases of prolonged years of fishing —- the drags will last nearly forever, plus be buttery smooth.  I know this sounds counterintuitive to most mechanics —- but thousands on here and in the industry have been doing this since Alan introduced it many years ago.

Thanks again for your help!

Fen

[scrinch]

Oops, Fred answered while I was thumb-typing. Well, our answers agree, so we're either both right or wrong!

Fiber washer 4-  You can use any of the three... the original hard smooth disk, a carbon fiber washer, or a delrin (type of plastic) washer. This part is intended to be a flat spacer between the bridge plate and the sleeve to preserve geometry and minimize friction. Different people have different preferences, but they all work.

Washer 86- The concave washer is called a Belleville. It flexes as pressure is applied when you tighten the drag star, moderating the friction between the metal and carbon fiber drag washers. As you say, it goes concave side toward the drag stack. When people modify the drag stack to achieve a higher drag rating, they will sometimes change to a thicker (stronger) Belleville, or even stack 2 (or more) Bellevilles.

Grease Yes, surprisingly you do want to grease your drag washers. The grease doesn't really impact the final drag rating of the stack, instead the pressure does, but it improves the smoothness of the drag, minimizing that initial quick release when the drag first starts to slip and chattering when the drag is just about to stop slipping. A smoother drag means less herky-jerk on the line and less chance to pull the hook or break the line. This is more important when using braid than when using mono that has a lot of stretch to it. There are two types (colors) of Cal's grease. Both are for the drag stack, but can be used anywhere in the reel that needs to be greased. One is for warmer climates and the other is for cold climates.

[Fen]

Wow, thank you both for your help!  First of all, what a great shop Fred; I am envious.

With the help you guys have given me, and others on the Forum, I feel like I can now reassemble the reels with confidence😊.

Fred, when I was talking about the oil fitting on the handle I was referring to the little hole on the plastic handle right where the tip of the arrow is pointing:



It just seems like I have seen little ball fittings there on other reels.  Maybe I just imagined it😊.

What would be your choice of material for the under-gear washer?

As one of our past presidents is reported to have said, "Honesty and hard work is no substitute for experience".  Thank you again for the benefit of your experience!

Fen



Aside: This process reminds me a bit of when my father opened his bicycle shop in a small town in Pennsylvania.  I was in eighth grade and was the mechanic.  Neither one of us had experience in repairing bicycles.  One of my first jobs was repairing a Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hub with an internal coaster brake.  I very carefully laid out my tools then carefully lifted the side cover...springs and dogs went flying everywhere!  I had no parts diagram and had to send away to England to get one. Now, with the internet and Google, I can pull one up in seconds:



Look a little bit like something from Mystic?😊


We lost money on that job😊.

[Fen]

Fred, this is what I was trying to describe:

[Keta]

Fred was a bit unclear on the grease, Cal's on the drag washers, Yamaha Marine grease on everything else.

[Maxed Out]

 That little ball bearing on top of your handle is likely stuck down inside. Put a bit of oil in the hole, and then poke around in the hole with a safety pin, or something similar, and it'll likely pop back up in place

[jgp12000]

I use Lucas reel oil you can inject the oil right into the
Oil ports,it's good stuff.

Lucas Oil Fishing Reel Oil https://a.co/d/4nUfgIu

[Fen]

Thanks again you guys!

Keta- I will use Cal's tan grease on the drag washers and marine grease elsewhere.  We have a boat and I have plenty of marine grease.  I am always surprised when I service the Volvo drive that the grease that has been underwater for a season looks like it was just placed there- amazing stuff!

It seems like many people on the Forum are from the West Coast so our boat, which was made in Bellingham, may look familiar to some. She may be funny looking but she's seaworthy😊:



Maxed Out- thanks for the advice but no luck so far retrieving the ball bearing in the handle but will continue to try.

jgp12000-thanks for the tip on the Lucas oil.  Lucas makes some really good products.  I will check it out.

Thanks again!
Fen

Just one more picture. This is one of my sons fly fishing:

[thorhammer]

Love the project; love the pic! You might consider putting the handle in a smaller container in the sonicator with some white vinegar and see if it will break down any corrosion that may be in the oil port, follow up with sonication in an oil. It is possible it's just stuck, but more likely some corrosion holding it.

Looking at a Senator project never gets old, at least for me, and this serves as a good refresher for newer members as to how to tackle such a project. Especially the part about including broadbill pics!

I won't be back home until next week but will see what I have in the way of 114H parts.

John

[Fen]

thorhammer, I have probed and probed the opening in the handle and there is not a ball in either handle.  I believe these are a rare Penn variant called a "female handle"🙄

Thanks for your help!
Fen

Glad you like the picures😊

Here is one my son sent to me:



I wonder if one can catch a fish like this with an old Penn 6/0 Senator?😊

[Maxed Out]

Nothing funny looking about that boat. Looks like a Sea Sport. Perfect for fishing the PNW

[Fen]

You nailed it Maxed Out!  It is a SeaSport Seamaster.  I had her built twenty five years ago.  She has been a great boat for us.

Still some lobster boats in the water here:







I love their lines: displacement hull with a bit of tumble home, high sheer with just the right amount of flare, and a plumb stem. They are just beautiful, I think, and handle some pretty tough weather.  Woops, sorry, I forgot that this is a fishing reel forum🤣.

Just finished pulling the bearing from the clicker side using the "Fen Puller"🤣:







Take care,
Fen

[Keta]

Wow, good idea!