Pinion bushing vs bearing on lever drags

[jurelometer]

Ok bear with me. I do cad for a living but it's civil engineering work not mechanical, And I didn't put too much time into this.

Assume oil everywhere.
The pinion can spin in the inner bushing, which can spin in the outer bushing, and the inner bushing can slide in as drag is increased and the very light Belleville helps it slide back out as drag is decreased.

Didn't say it was a good idea. But I did say I'd sketch it. And I'll be clear that even if this is a viable approach it would need oiling more often than a ball bearing

On the reels that I am thinking about there are threads at the end of the shaft for tightening the drag knob.  Then there is the spool and drag assembly.  Then something on the shaft that acts as a stop for the drag to tighten up against.  This is the end of the axial load. It can't reach the pinion.

Could you point to a schematic of a representative reel of the design that you have in mind?

-J

[Keta]

The pinion gear press against the inter race of the pinion bearings putting a side load on the bearing on Torque, Fathom and Avet LD reels and most likely all others.

[JasonGotaProblem]

Any reason the pinion couldn't slide back and forth in the inner race? Of a traditional layout, Or inner bushing of my mess? If the outside of the pinion  (the part that goes inside the bearing not the part with teeth) was smooth enough and oily enough couldn't we circumvent this whole issue?

[JasonGotaProblem]

Ok bear with me. I do cad for a living but it's civil engineering work not mechanical, And I didn't put too much time into this.

Assume oil everywhere.
The pinion can spin in the inner bushing, which can spin in the outer bushing, and the inner bushing can slide in as drag is increased and the very light Belleville helps it slide back out as drag is decreased.

Didn't say it was a good idea. But I did say I'd sketch it. And I'll be clear that even if this is a viable approach it would need oiling more often than a ball bearing

On the reels that I am thinking about there are threads at the end of the shaft for tightening the drag knob.  Then there is the spool and drag assembly.  Then something on the shaft that acts as a stop for the drag to tighten up against.  This is the end of the axial load. It can't reach the pinion.

Could you point to a schematic of a representative reel of the design that you have in mind?

-J

Can't say that I can. But I will update my idea a bit to go more into detail on that on my next iteration if this turns out being more worthy of exploring. I was merely drawing what the bushing assembly might look like.

So this all started from buying one of Bryan Young's boxes. I think #148 specifically because it looked like some junk that nobody wanted (seemed like a way to help), other than that 50LD daiwa, and some mystery small silver lever drag that turned out to be an omoto VS10, which would be a decent reel, apparently other than the tiny pinion bearing that has already failed. That got me thinking about pinion bearing concepts in general, which led to this random landing spot.

Clear as mud, right?

[Keta]

The side loading is not from the gears, it is from pulling or pushing the spool and drag assembly together. Floating pinion gear/gears will misalign the main gear/gears and cause issues with the shift mecanism on multi speed reels.

I just sold a used Avet JX single speed reel I would have donated to you to learn how they work.  Keep thinking though, unconventional thinking sometimes comes up improvements.

[jurelometer]

This thread is getting a bit messy.

First of all, let's do a refresh of the difference between a standard radial ball bearing and an angular contact bearing (ACB).

As I understand  it,  a  radial bearing has grooves for the balls to run in that are centered on both races.  This helps keep the races aligned when there is no axial load.

An ACB  has a left groove on one race and a right groove on the other, so the bearing does not do a good job of centering the races and supporting radial load until you add some axial load to push the grooves toward each other.  This minimal load is called a preload, and is required when installing ACBs  on things like wheel spindles.

Running an ACB with radial load but without the required minimum axial load preset will damage the bearing, or at least wear it out faster.


Let's look at a cross section  of an ACB:




Note the contact angle.  This is amount that the grooves  are "tilted" from being perfectly perpendicular to the shaft.  The greater the contact angle, the closer the ACB gets to being a thrust bearing and the farther that it gets from being a radial bearing.  A greater contact angle requires a higher preset load as well.

ACBs come in different contact angles, so choosing the right contact angle is part of the selection process.

So what does this mean for reels?  First of all, we can't just drop in an ACB wherever there is a radial ball bearing.  We have to ensure that there is sufficient axial load whenever the bearing will be turning, and we also need to ensure that the bearing to shaft alignment is within the tolerances specified by the bearing manufacturer (ACBs usually require tighter tolerances).  Plus there should also be a requirement for significant axial load support.

Having said all that, it seems like the pinion bearing in a lever drag could be a reasonable candidate.  When the drag is turned to freespool, the axial load may be a bit lighter than ideal, but there will not be any radial load on the pinion until you flip the lever and start winding, at which point the axial load will have been ramped up.

But if you are going to do an ACB, you might need to address axial load on the other side of the spool, which means another ACB or a thrust bearing.

I went back and looked at the threads here on dropping in ACBs into various lever drags.  It looks like there were some attempts that were successes, some claims of success that looked a bit dubious, and some claims of minimal or no success (but not much detail here).

The other problem noted was finding corrosion resistant ACBs in the small sizes required for drop in replacements for pinion bearings.  I did a quick look and couldn't find anything smaller than a 10 mm shaft size in 440c stainless.

So if you want to try this at home, you probably will be stuck with high carbon steel ACBs and dealing with the corrosion risk. And ACBs are not cheap.

But Lee might be right about the concept.

-J

[Keta]

The bearing on the right is a poor fix for thrust and I think is what Avet uses.  What I am refering to is like Timkin wheel bearings with rollers rather than balls.

[jurelometer]

Any reason the pinion couldn't slide back and forth in the inner race? Of a traditional layout, Or inner bushing of my mess? If the outside of the pinion  (the part that goes inside the bearing not the part with teeth) was smooth enough and oily enough couldn't we circumvent this whole issue?

Good luck finding a material that makes both a nice strong gear and a nice smooth bearing, especially without a pressurized oil bath.

And dont't forget that you still need a thrust bearing surface.

-J

[Keta]

Yup, and  the "cure" is a true thrust bearing.



It might take adding a bit of width to the handle side side plate (pull drags) or the off handle side (push drags) and a shoulder on the spool shaft.  Or a screw in bearing carrier for the radial load bearing like on  Penn Senator reels.

Penn Fathom and Tork LD reels are half way there.

[jurelometer]

The bearing on the right is a poor fix for thrust and I think is what Avet uses.  What I am refering to is like Timkin wheel bearings with rollers rather than balls.

if you are referring to this graphic, the bearing on the left is a radial bearing, and the one on the right is an angular contact bearing.  Avet would be using the one on the left.



-J

Yup, and  the "cure" is a true thrust bearing.

[jurelometer]

And if we are going to veer into ball vs. roller bearings, I am going to politely extract myself from this thread.

Eject in three, two, one...

-J

[Keta]

From the failed Avet pinion bearings I have torn apart the pinion bearing is like the one on the right.  Avet pinion bearings have black shields, their radial bearings have blue shields.  I keep at least a dozen Avet pinion bearings in stock and I replace them every time I service a Avet, needed or not.

[jurelometer]

Any reason the pinion couldn't slide back and forth in the inner race? Of a traditional layout, Or inner bushing of my mess? If the outside of the pinion  (the part that goes inside the bearing not the part with teeth) was smooth enough and oily enough couldn't we circumvent this whole issue?

Good luck finding a material that makes both a nice strong gear and a nice smooth bearing, especially without a pressurized oil bath.

And dont't forget that you still need a thrust bearing surface.

-J

Actually, I don't like my response.  To be more accurate, it is difficult to replace the thrust bearing duty performed by the pinion bearing with a bearing free design. I think that you could very possibly get away without having a radial bearing of some kind.

-J

[Keta]

Beryllium bronze might do both but it is is not cheep and beryllium is toxic.

[JasonGotaProblem]

I didn't say the pinion and the bearing need to be the same material. Just smooth. Like how a spool shaft slides up and down the inside of a spinner, in contact with the pinion, but if both are polished the resistance is negligible. One is steel the other is brass or bronze, on any spinner worth talking about.

Maybe a nice slippery sleeve of a teflon-based material between the two?