New guy from Singapore!

[jurelometer]

Nice snakehead!

The benefit you are reporting from adding an inner drag washer is puzzling.

Increasing the surface area does not increase the amount of sliding friction. So something else must be going on here.

The formula for sliding friction is simply the coefficient of friction for the two surface multiplied by the load pressing them together. 

The amount of braking work per revolution is a function of distance traveled, which is the "average" circumference of the disk from inner to outer diameter.  With a single drag washer, the larger the hole, the greater the amount of braking work per revolution for the same clamping load.  This is one reason why they put larger rotors and not larger pads in performance car brakes.

This modification appears like you are making the hole smaller.

Here is one theory:  Since the drag washers are not keyed or eared, they are capable of sliding against the face on either side.  If it happens that one drag washer slides on the outward face, and the other on the inward face, you will get two drag surfaces for the same clamping load, and since one has a much smaller diameter, about a 20% improvement seems about right.

But if over time, they eventually both start sliding on the same side, you will see a decrease in drag over the single large washer, as you have decreased the "average" diameter. I guess that you could treat the surfaces with different substances to encourage the desired behavior.

Or if the drag star was bottoming out originally, if any new drag washers are a bit thicker, you may be simply adding more clamping load.

Or a fresh drag washer might increase the coefficient of friction.

Intentionally adding more clamping load can be also an option if the star threads are up for it.  If the star is bottomming out, you can add an extra spacer washer or two, but you may lose the ability to loosen the drag all the way.

Note:  I put "average" in quotes, because there is a proper formula for calculating surface distance traveled per revolution of a disk using inner and outer diameter. I think that I might have put this in another thread, but interested folk can find it by searching the web for velocity calculations for thrust washers.

Hope that you find this useful,

-J

[Dominick]

velocity calculations for thrust washers 

Hope that you find this useful,

-J

Say "velocity calculations for thrust washers" 5 times quickly.     Dominick

Yeah Yeah--stay on the subject... Smile Dave 

[jurelometer]

velocity calculations for thrust washers 

Hope that you find this useful,

-J

Say "velocity calculations for thrust washers" 5 times quickly.    Dominick

Yeah Yeah--stay on the subject... Smile Dave 

Good point.  I guess it is possible to catch fish without doing the thrust washer velocity calculations. But how is that any fun?

I can always count on Dominick to keep me in line

-J

[nelz]

Hope that you find this useful,
-J

You're gonna scare the new guy away 

[quang tran]

For the size of snake head you catch Daiwa 21 Zillion HD is under size .You can win if not too much cover . I would go with bigger reel rather than try increase drag, that reel only rated 10lbs drag and snake head require quickly pull out of cove . 

[Vogelspinnen]

Nice snakehead!

The benefit you are reporting from adding an inner drag washer is puzzling.

Increasing the surface area does not increase the amount of sliding friction. So something else must be going on here.

The formula for sliding friction is simply the coefficient of friction for the two surface multiplied by the load pressing them together. 

The amount of braking work per revolution is a function of distance traveled, which is the "average" circumference of the disk from inner to outer diameter.  With a single drag washer, the larger the hole, the greater the amount of braking work per revolution for the same clamping load.  This is one reason why they put larger rotors and not larger pads in performance car brakes.

This modification appears like you are making the hole smaller.

Here is one theory:  Since the drag washers are not keyed or eared, they are capable of sliding against the face on either side.  If it happens that one drag washer slides on the outward face, and the other on the inward face, you will get two drag surfaces for the same clamping load, and since one has a much smaller diameter, about a 20% improvement seems about right.

But if over time, they eventually both start sliding on the same side, you will see a decrease in drag over the single large washer, as you have decreased the "average" diameter. I guess that you could treat the surfaces with different substances to encourage the desired behavior.

Or if the drag star was bottoming out originally, if any new drag washers are a bit thicker, you may be simply adding more clamping load.

Or a fresh drag washer might increase the coefficient of friction.

Intentionally adding more clamping load can be also an option if the star threads are up for it.  If the star is bottomming out, you can add an extra spacer washer or two, but you may lose the ability to loosen the drag all the way.

Note:  I put "average" in quotes, because there is a proper formula for calculating surface distance traveled per revolution of a disk using inner and outer diameter. I think that I might have put this in another thread, but interested folk can find it by searching the web for velocity calculations for thrust washers.

Hope that you find this useful,

-J

Thank you for the insight J, your reply has given me a lot of food for thought, so much so that I just dismantled the reel to go back to a single washer to see the results.

So on my pull test with my electronic scale, the single washer pulled a consistent 9lbs while the double washer pulled a consistent 11lbs. The double washer does seem to feel less smooth though. Of course the start drag is tightened by hand, and I honestly do not know if I might have tightened it the second time round just a wee bit more, so this test is by no means conclusive. Could there be an explanation for this?

My train of thought is that the more surface area means more contact between the materials which provides more friction, assuming that the pressure provided by the star drag is sufficient. The same way racing cars run slicks in dry weather, because they are trying to maximize contact with the road. In the cars case, the PSI would actually be even less with the slicks, since the pressure exerted on the tyres are the same, but spread out over more surface area now.

[Vogelspinnen]

For the size of snake head you catch Daiwa 21 Zillion HD is under size .You can win if not too much cover . I would go with bigger reel rather than try increase drag, that reel only rated 10lbs drag and snake head require quickly pull out of cove . 

It definitely is, I might look to change to a reel with more drag in the future, but what I love about this reel is how comfortably it casts even weightless flukes. I have an Revo Beast with 30lbs of drag, and while that is great for the fight, casting that reel all day is really tiring.

So far I have pulled 16-20lb giants out of trees with my "thumb drag", and so far so good, since snakeheads have a lot of power but not much stamina, the fight is usually over in a few minutes.

If you have a good recommendation I'm all ears! Having a reel with more power would definitely be a good thing.

[quang tran]

For the size of snake head you catch Daiwa 21 Zillion HD is under size .You can win if not too much cover . I would go with bigger reel rather than try increase drag, that reel only rated 10lbs drag and snake head require quickly pull out of cove . 

It definitely is, I might look to change to a reel with more drag in the future, but what I love about this reel is how comfortably it casts even weightless flukes. I have an Revo Beast with 30lbs of drag, and while that is great for the fight, casting that reel all day is really tiring.

So far I have pulled 16-20lb giants out of trees with my "thumb drag", and so far so good, since snakeheads have a lot of power but not much stamina, the fight is usually over in a few minutes.

If you have a good recommendation I'm all ears! Having a reel with more power would definitely be a good thing.

I can't find another reel that can cast unweighted plastic better than Daiwa Zillion and I can't use baitcasting for heavy fish as my left hand is weak , if you use spinning so there are so many can do it

[jurelometer]

My train of thought is that the more surface area means more contact between the materials which provides more friction, assuming that the pressure provided by the star drag is sufficient.

It is a common misconception that surface area affects sliding friction. Folks on this site find it especially hard to believe. So you are in good company

Surface area does not affect dry sliding friction:  Here is the formula:

f= uN
where:
f is friction
u is the coefficient of friction for the surface pair ( a number that defines the relative stickiness)
N is the force pressing the two surfaces together

Notice that surface area is not part of the equation.  A crude explanation  for this is that as you increase the surface area but do not increase the total pressure, the pressure on any given spot on the surface decreases proportionally, so you do gain any friction.

The same way racing cars run slicks in dry weather, because they are trying to maximize contact with the road. In the cars case, the PSI would actually be even less with the slicks, since the pressure exerted on the tyres are the same, but spread out over more surface area now.

Friction is what happens when the tires slide (bad).  What you are describing is traction, which has its own formulas and its own coefficient of traction.  We generally don't care much about traction performance on a reel, just friction.
Traction gets really complicated really fast.  There are lots of scientific papers on the topic that I haven't even glanced at, so I have nothing to offer on this topic.

If you look at the braking surfaces on a race car, which is closer to what we are dealing with on a reel, since it is using friction to apply braking forces, you will notice that the pads are quite small and located at the outer circumference of a large disk.  Compared to a standard car, they did not change the braking surface area much, but they greatly increased the disk diameter.

You have changed the coefficient of friction and the clamping force to some degree on your drag - both of these will affect  friction, so I don't think that we have found an exception to the basic friction formula here.


What you can do to get more drag is increase the number of drag surfaces by stacking more CF and keyed metal washers, or modify the spacers so that there is more room to tighten the star. 

For myself, using a small reel on a species that is not going to run very far, I would prefer to thumb the spool, as it also protects the gear train as you have noted.  Back in the days before high quality drags,  reels were often fitted with a small flap of leather behind the spool to enable heavier thumbing without losing a layer of skin.

BTW- Jason started a new thread on the more sciency end of this discussion:
https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,39647.0/topicseen.html

Please keep posting and sharing your adventures.  A big snakehead has always been on my bucket list.  I tried once a long time ago when traveling through your part of the world, but came up empty. They are starting to get some decent sized ones here in the USA in the southeast, so it is becoming a more practical opportunity.

-J

[Vogelspinnen]

For the size of snake head you catch Daiwa 21 Zillion HD is under size .You can win if not too much cover . I would go with bigger reel rather than try increase drag, that reel only rated 10lbs drag and snake head require quickly pull out of cove . 

It definitely is, I might look to change to a reel with more drag in the future, but what I love about this reel is how comfortably it casts even weightless flukes. I have an Revo Beast with 30lbs of drag, and while that is great for the fight, casting that reel all day is really tiring.

So far I have pulled 16-20lb giants out of trees with my "thumb drag", and so far so good, since snakeheads have a lot of power but not much stamina, the fight is usually over in a few minutes.

If you have a good recommendation I'm all ears! Having a reel with more power would definitely be a good thing.

I can't find another reel that can cast unweighted plastic better than Daiwa Zillion and I can't use baitcasting for heavy fish as my left hand is weak , if you use spinning so there are so many can do it

Same here, which is why I mostly use left hand reels now. I have considered spinning too, but I do a lot of jungle fishing and I can't cast spinning reels accurately.

A lot of the guys here run the ATC combat, I'm considering that and the 13 Fishing reels too

[Vogelspinnen]

Friction is what happens when the tires slide (bad).  What you are describing is traction, which has its own formulas and its own coefficient of traction.  We generally don't care much about traction performance on a reel, just friction.
Traction gets really complicated really fast.  There are lots of scientific papers on the topic that I haven't even glanced at, so I have nothing to offer on this topic.

If you look at the braking surfaces on a race car, which is closer to what we are dealing with on a reel, since it is using friction to apply braking forces, you will notice that the pads are quite small and located at the outer circumference of a large disk.  Compared to a standard car, they did not change the braking surface area much, but they greatly increased the disk diameter.

You have changed the coefficient of friction and the clamping force to some degree on your drag - both of these will affect  friction, so I don't think that we have found an exception to the basic friction formula here.


What you can do to get more drag is increase the number of drag surfaces by stacking more CF and keyed metal washers, or modify the spacers so that there is more room to tighten the star. 

For myself, using a small reel on a species that is not going to run very far, I would prefer to thumb the spool, as it also protects the gear train as you have noted.  Back in the days before high quality drags,  reels were often fitted with a small flap of leather behind the spool to enable heavier thumbing without losing a layer of skin.

BTW- Jason started a new thread on the more sciency end of this discussion:
https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,39647.0/topicseen.html

Please keep posting and sharing your adventures.  A big snakehead has always been on my bucket list.  I tried once a long time ago when traveling through your part of the world, but came up empty. They are starting to get some decent sized ones here in the USA in the southeast, so it is becoming a more practical opportunity.

-J

[/quote]

Thank you for taking the effort to explain this to me, it's still hard to wrap my head around it but it does make sense! I'll be following the thread closely.

For now whatever drag I have still serves me well. I really only need that crazy power during hooksets (to get that thick wire into the bony skull) and when the fish dives for cover. Good luck with your snakehead hunt, they are really fun fish to find and fight!

[quang tran]

I wish they invaded to Texas water ,they fight good and taste good also .There are alligator gar here that fight good also but don't take lure as snake head

[Brewcrafter]

What Jurelometer is describing is...hard to wrap anyones head around including mine.  But think of it this way, my 2007 Honda Accord has some pretty nice brakes.  My 2025 ZL1 Corvette (get real, I could never own one of those!) has "big brakes" but when you bust them apart - giant discs but the pads are not a whole hell of a lot bigger than the pads on my 1976 Dodge Dart - BUT - they are much further out from the center.  The F1/car guys call it "swept area".  I amd glad we have members experimenting like this - thats what makes the forum the best! - john

[nelz]

If you have a good recommendation I'm all ears! Having a reel with more power would definitely be a good thing.

Have you ever heard about the Daiwa Shrapnel reel? It was actually designed for your type of fishing. I have one and love it! It's so beautiful that I hardly ever actually use it, but those times it has been in salt water. It's overkill for the fresh-water species I target, but would be just the ticket for those monster snakeheads.

I landed this nice snook with it (old photo). From a pier, these fish will break you off on the pilings in a heartbeat! The reel performed flawlessly.

[Gobi King]

Op,
Question:
Are you fishing in Singapore ?
Asking for a friend :-)