Surfmaster 150 - Getting it Ready to Fish

[Vintage Offshore Tackle]

The advantage of the Newell base is that it is  rigid (as compared to the stock Penn stamped brass base), and in conjunction with the Newell bars, reduces the torquing under load, keeping the sideplates in parallel alignment, reducing the binding effect on the spool and drive train.

I would guess that this isn't as much of an issue with lighter line in a smaller reel like the 150, as compared to a Jigmaster or larger with 30lb.+ line and heavier drag settings, but the reel looks cooler with the Newell kit, even if the reel isn't subjected to the forces that would fully test the increased rigidity provided.

[work2fish]

I got it back together, with the help of some Youtube videos. I was trying to put the anti-reverse dog on the plastic post on the sideplate. I learned from the video that the dog actually goes on one of the sideplate screws, and the post on the sideplate holds the flat dog spring.

I couldn't get the pin out of the gear sleeve. The gear sleeve was spinning very smoothly, so I left well enough alone and didn't take the pin out. For future reference, is there a good tool to use to get these pins out?

There was some dried grease, I originally thought, on some of the metal drag washers, but it turned out to be discoloration from corrosion. They feel smooth enough, though. The bottom of the main gear also had some corrosion, and the corroded spots are a bit rough. I'm trying to picture how the drag works. Does the main gear rotate against the smaller washer that is under it? That could either smooth out the corrosion on the bottom of the main gear or eventually damage the carbon washer. Might investigate a new gear set.

Now it is time to spool it up and practice casting. I'm thinking of using 25 lb test mono. Any suggestions for how many turns of the handle to get the line from one side of the spool to the other when I am guiding it with my thumb?

The photos aren't very good because it is dark here now, and the lighting in my workspace is harsh.

Mark

[work2fish]

The advantage of the Newell base is that it is  rigid (as compared to the stock Penn stamped brass base), and in conjunction with the Newell bars, reduces the torquing under load, keeping the sideplates in parallel alignment, reducing the binding effect on the spool and drive train.

Thanks, Randy! This reel will probably have catfish and carp duty, as well as occasional surf fishing, so the frame will be ready if I ever hook something large in the surf.

[Vintage Offshore Tackle]

I hope that you get to put it to the test soon Mark!

[work2fish]

I hope that you get to put it to the test soon Mark!

I'll be taking it out to practice casting this week, and then in early April my son and I are going on a trip to South Carolina (Lake Wylie) for catfish, carp, and buffalo. I hope to use this reel a lot on that trip.

[work2fish]

Another question... I replaced the reddish-colored hard washer that was under the main gear with a carbontex washer of the same size. It came with my kit from smoothdrag. Is it ok to replace that hard washer with carbontex?

[jurelometer]

I couldn't get the pin out of the gear sleeve. The gear sleeve was spinning very smoothly, so I left well enough alone and didn't take the pin out. For future reference, is there a good tool to use to get these pins out?

A punch is the appropriate tool, but a nail with a slightly smaller diameter than the pin will work.  Just grind the point off, so that you will have a flat end.

There was some dried grease, I originally thought, on some of the metal drag washers, but it turned out to be discoloration from corrosion. They feel smooth enough, though. The bottom of the main gear also had some corrosion, and the corroded spots are a bit rough. I'm trying to picture how the drag works. Does the main gear rotate against the smaller washer that is under it? That could either smooth out the corrosion on the bottom of the main gear or eventually damage the carbon washer. Might investigate a new gear set.

The dog prevents the gear sleeve and keyed washers from turning backwards, so the main gear and eared washers will turn backwards when the drag slips. The fiber drag washers and the under gear washer may or may not turn.  They will stick to the mating surface with the higher coefficient of friction, and slide against the other.

In terms of the undergear washer, it serves primarily as a thrust bearing, providing a flat sliding surface that helps keep the main gear in alignment.  Some folk here replace it with a fiber drag washer, believing that they will gain more in braking i than they will lose in thrust bearing  performance.  There are also some alternative materials that sort of split the difference,  but with other drawbacks.  It was a long subject of debate here.  The stock undergear washer is probably the most trouble-free.  All options will probably work ok for your situation.

If you go with a fiber drag washer for the undergear, the diameter has to be small enough that the dog can't reach it, otherwise it can get shredded under load.

You do want smooth surfaces on the bottom face of the main gear and both faces of the metal drag washers.  You can use water to stick some wet dry sandpaper to a piece of window glass and sand down any damage from corrosion if necessary. Slide the parts flat against the paper. The glass is flat enough to keep the parts true. Start with no more than 220 grit, and go at least to 400.

You don't need to get the inside face  of the main gear smooth as long as the washer on the other side is smooth. The opposing metal washer face will end up being the sliding surface.

 Or replacement drag washers and a yoke are pretty cheap if you don't want to spend the time sanding.  They do look a little rough as-is.

Now it is time to spool it up and practice casting. I'm thinking of using 25 lb test mono. Any suggestions for how many turns of the handle to get the line from one side of the spool to the other when I am guiding it with my thumb?

When you first start filling the spool, make sure that the wraps are tight and snug to the wrap next to them.  Once you get further into the fill, the wraps should be mebbe around twice the line diameter apart at most, to help prevent backlashes.  The exact amount isn't too important.  What is important is to always maintain tension when winding, even if it means pinching the line with your guiding thumb and index finger, and also keeping as flat a line lay as possible with no high spots building up.  It will become second nature in short time.

-J

[Keta]

Another question... I replaced the reddish-colored hard washer that was under the main gear with a carbontex washer of the same size. It came with my kit from smoothdrag. Is it ok to replace that hard washer with carbontex?

Yes.

[jurelometer]

Another question... I replaced the reddish-colored hard washer that was under the main gear with a carbontex washer of the same size. It came with my kit from smoothdrag. Is it ok to replace that hard washer with carbontex?

Yes.

In terms of the undergear washer, it serves primarily as a thrust bearing, providing a flat sliding surface that helps keep the main gear in alignment.  Some folk here replace it with a fiber drag washer, believing that they will gain more in braking than they will lose in thrust bearing performance.  There are also some alternative materials that sort of split the difference,  but with other drawbacks.  It was a long subject of debate here.  The stock undergear washer is probably the most trouble-free.  All options will probably work ok for your situation.

If you go with a fiber drag washer for the undergear, the diameter has to be small enough that the dog can't reach it, otherwise it can get shredded under load.

There are experienced folk here with strong opinions from both sides of the CF undergear washer debate. To avoid rehashing the debate- here is a summary from another thread:

https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,27295.msg313604.html#msg313604

I still stand by the points in that post, other than concerns about creep in Delrin and Rulon, which is not an issue, especially  at the clamping loads in a star drag reel.  The whole thread is worth a read IMHO.


-J

[work2fish]

Thanks for the link to that thread discussing the under-gear washer, jurelometer! I've decided that I need to start reading through the old threads, starting with the stickies. Several times I've Googled something that I was wondering about, and the Google search brought me right back to a thread here at alantani.com.

The carbontex for under the gear was part of the set from smoothdrag. It is the same size as the original hard thrust washer. I'm going to try it for now. The hard washer that was originally under the gear was broken.

Since I put the reel back together my brain has been spinning around trying to understand how the drag works. I actually woke up at 5:30 AM and couldn't get back to sleep because I kept thinking about it   

I can see that the handle turns the gear sleeve (and the ratchet), as well as the keyed metal washers. Then, the keyed washers and the ratchet put friction on the carbontex discs. The carbontex discs, in turn, put friction on both sides of the main gear (when carbontex is used under the main gear) and on both sides of the eared metal washers, which translates to the main gear through the ears. The main gear turns the pinion, which turns the spool. When line pulls out I suppose that whichever surface has the least friction will release first. I'm trying to wrap my mind around what would cause several of the surfaces to release at the same time. I'm guessing it involves calculus 

From a practical standpoint, after I put line on the spool I will put the reel on a rod and have my son be the "fish" to see how smooth the drag is at various levels.

Mark

[jurelometer]

Thanks for the link to that thread discussing the under-gear washer, jurelometer! I've decided that I need to start reading through the old threads, starting with the stickies. Several times I've Googled something that I was wondering about, and the Google search brought me right back to a thread here at alantani.com.

The carbontex for under the gear was part of the set from smoothdrag. It is the same size as the original hard thrust washer. I'm going to try it for now. The hard washer that was originally under the gear was broken.

Since I put the reel back together my brain has been spinning around trying to understand how the drag works. I actually woke up at 5:30 AM and couldn't get back to sleep because I kept thinking about it   

I can see that the handle turns the gear sleeve (and the ratchet), as well as the keyed metal washers. Then, the keyed washers and the ratchet put friction on the carbontex discs. The carbontex discs, in turn, put friction on both sides of the main gear (when carbontex is used under the main gear) and on both sides of the eared metal washers, which translates to the main gear through the ears. The main gear turns the pinion, which turns the spool. When line pulls out I suppose that whichever surface has the least friction will release first. I'm trying to wrap my mind around what would cause several of the surfaces to release at the same time. I'm guessing it involves calculus 

From a practical standpoint, after I put line on the spool I will put the reel on a rod and have my son be the "fish" to see how smooth the drag is at various levels.

Mark

No calculus involved. You have to get slippage for every fiber drag washer since each metal washer is locked to either the gear sleeve or the gear.  What is unknown is which surface the drag washer will stick to, and which it will slide on.  The key thing to remember is that the more surfaces sliding for a given clamping load, the more braking work per revolution.

Some members here customize the drag by using  more/thinner metal and fiber washers in the stack,  providing the same amount of drag work for less clamping load, which helps to make the drag smoother, but probably doesn't change maximum capacity that much as something else is going to break first (not a popular opinion here).  Usually when star drag washers fail, it is toward the top (handle side) of the stack, which suggests that the load doesn't transfer completely  through the stack.  As you add more/thinner washers, eventually you will be doing more harm than good.  There are premade custom stacks available.  I don't use them, so can't provide firsthand experience.

There are also more complex customizations that use inserts or cutouts ground into to the main gear pocket that allow you to use eared fiber washers and only keyed  metal washers- this allows you to get two sliding surfaces per fiber washer, but requires that the eared fiber washers be reasonably thick so that the ears don't get sheared off. Some of the kits that used eared fiber washers that were also thin had issues.

In terms of using the CF under the main gear, most of the failures reported here were with larger reels at high drag settings.  The setup you are using is popular here, and there doesn't seem to be many complaints.  I wouldn't worry. 

From a mechanical engineering standpoint, it is not a nice way to treat your gears, but real world experience seems to indicate that folks here are generally getting away with it just fine.  If it was my reel and I wanted the ideal option, I would go with Rulon, but this is probably going to require cutting a custom part. I don't think that anyone is making these.

-J

[JasonGotaProblem]

Dave's answer is better than mine, but I went thru the effort of typing it so dang it I'm gonna post it. Maybe an alternatively worded explanation might help. Or not. If I confuse things I apologize

Think of a reel with only one drag washer, for example an early Shimano bantam.  The drag disc is glued to the main gear, and there's a metal disc keyed to the shaft. When the main gear is spinning as line is being pulled out by a fish, the shaft and metal disc stay still, and so friction is generated by the rubbing. Now add a layer. There's already something keyed to she shaft, namely the top of the keyed disc. But you need something to move with the main. So that's why the next metal disc gets ears, so it moves when the main gear moves. You can keep going, I've seen some pretty tall stacks.

(assuming a properly functioning reel) It's worth considering that 50% of the surfaces move, or none move. There's no scenario with one disc moving while the others are stationary.
The keyed discs move with the shaft. The eared discs move with the main gear. One side or the other of the carbon disc will slip. Maybe both can, that's calculus, and requires 2 nearly perfectly smooth metal surfaces. But in general only one side of each carbon disc will slip, and we mere mortals can picture it.

There are setups where all the carbon disc have ears, and the metal discs are all keyed. In that case both sides of the drag disc are active. And the crazy high drag numbers we see from those setups speak for themselves. It's the same basic concept, but the eared metal discs and the carbon discs are combined into the same entity. I hope that last paragraph didn't confuse things more.

[jurelometer]

Dave's answer is better than mine, but I went thru the effort of typing it so dang it I'm gonna post it. Maybe an alternatively worded explanation might help. Or not. If I confuse things I apologize

I don't know about better - sometimes my explanations are too detailed.  Different explanations work better for different people.

The keyed discs move with the shaft. The eared discs move with the main gear. One side or the other of the carbon disc will slip. Maybe both can, that's calculus, and requires 2 nearly perfectly smooth metal surfaces. But in general only one side of each carbon disc will slip, and we mere mortals can picture it.

I like the first part here.  But no calculus involved.  Each pair of mating surfaces will have a static and kinetic coefficient  of friction (relative stickiness). Only one side at a time will slide and it will be the side with the lower CoF.  This can change during operation, but seems a bit unlikely even if both sides are very close in overall CoF, since  static is always going to be higher than kinetic. Once one side is slipping (kinetic), it is going to continue being the lower CoF side compared to the  non sliding (static) surface pair on the other side.

See what I mean about getting too detailed

-J