Braid fishing line lubricant.

[Flat Top]

About 10 years ago or so I started lubing my braided line and rod guides with food grade silicone. The line seemed to last longer than before the lube was used and the line feed much smoother through the guides when casting. No weakness in the line or shock leader knot was exhibited, when respooling the reels the spool was clean...no rust or tarnish. Do any of you use a line lube and if so what do you use.

[jgp12000]

I have only sprayed "Reel Magic" on mono & it does appear to make things happen for the better. I spray the entire reel in a pinch.

[drumbum]

I wonder how many "armor all" their braid....

I may don a  guinea pig suit in the future,.....fer sighans an all

[jurelometer]

You might want to try a blind test to see if you are actually getting any casting improvement, and how long it lasts.  I don't think that the science is really on your side.   Putting a lubricant on a sticky plastic like a PVC coated fly line makes some sense, but modern braid is a different beast.

Here are some reasons why it doesn't seem to be a benefit:


1. UHMWPE (the stuff braid is made from) on ceramic inserts is an extremely low friction interface. There is not much room for improvement. It is possible that even clean lubricant will increase the coefficient of friction, since the non-lubricated surface pair is already ridiculously smooth.


2. Sliding  friction is a function of the amount of force pressing the surfaces together.  When the line is shooting through the guides on a cast, there is very little force forcing the  surfaces together.  The amount of friction occurring on the guides is very small compared to the friction of line on line leaving the spool, impacting the blank and sides of the guide frames and most importantly, the line and payload moving through the air (fluid friction).  Even a successful attempt to decrease a very small component of the overall friction is unlikely to yield a noticeable benefit.

 If you slathered on enough lubricant to change the surface of the line, it could change the amount of fluid friction (air resistance) during the cast, but this seems unlikely.

3.  Nothing sticks to UHMWPE.  That is why braid has a hard time even holding dye. It is impervious to many chemicals. If you found something with a solvent  in it that allowed it to penetrate the fibers, it would probably weaken them.  Any coating would not stay on the surface of the fibers where friction is occurring (it would rub right off),

4. Many braids come with a coating to help hold dye and make the line more manageable. It gets trapped between the fibers, but doesn't  last a long time (nothing sticks to UHMWPE). A lubricant is either not going to stick to the coating, or stick to it and change its properties, potentially for the worse.

5. Lubricants are likely to attract dust, grit, and other particles it comes in contact with.  It will help trap these contaminants in the gaps in the weave, where they will contribute to wear when the line is under tension.  Plus trapped contaminants that stick out past the surface of the line will increase the amount of friction.

6.  You now have to be look into the health and safety aspects of touching lubricated line, and the potential environmental impact of introducing the chemicals into the waters that you fish, especially small streams and ponds.

That is what I can come up with off the top of my head.

-J
 

[wfjord]

I think it's always best to keep braided lines dry.

As braids go, I get best casting results from spectra (PowerPro) on spinning reels if the reel is a modern one with a spool specifically designed for casting braids. On my older 1st and 2nd generation Penn Spinfishers I find that during a cast spectra PP braids will keep looping off the spool and loop around the drag knob if you don't stop the line from leaving the spool either the moment the plug/bait hits the water or the moment before it hits the water.  The vast majority of my spinning reels are older Penn Spinfishers. I only have two modern spinning reels designed for braid, the best of them being a Daiwa BG and the other a Pflueger President that was given to me.

When I switched from Spectra PP to fused Fireline (Dyneema) on my older spinning reels the problem resolved itself. The original fused Fireline is stiffer, almost wire-like, but it handles and casts far better on older spinning reels -- and line twist effects aren't nearly as noticeable.

On the other hand, Spectra (PP) naturally works like a charm on my baitcasters as the dynamics, of course (duh), are very different than on the older spinning reels.

[Flat Top]

You might want to try a blind test to see if you are actually getting any casting improvement, and how long it lasts.  I don't think that the science is really on your side.   Putting a lubricant on a sticky plastic like a PVC coated fly line makes some sense, but modern braid is a different beast.

Here are some reasons why it doesn't seem to be a benefit:


1. UHMWPE (the stuff braid is made from) on ceramic inserts is an extremely low friction interface. There is not much room for improvement. It is possible that even clean lubricant will increase the coefficient of friction, since the non-lubricated surface pair is already ridiculously smooth.


2. Sliding  friction is a function of the amount of force pressing the surfaces together.  When the line is shooting through the guides on a cast, there is very little force forcing the  surfaces together.  The amount of friction occurring on the guides is very small compared to the friction of line on line leaving the spool, impacting the blank and sides of the guide frames and most importantly, the line and payload moving through the air (fluid friction).  Even a successful attempt to decrease a very small component of the overall friction is unlikely to yield a noticeable benefit.

 If you slathered on enough lubricant to change the surface of the line, it could change the amount of fluid friction (air resistance) during the cast, but this seems unlikely.

3.  Nothing sticks to UHMWPE.  That is why braid has a hard time even holding dye. It is impervious to many chemicals. If you found something with a solvent  in it that allowed it to penetrate the fibers, it would probably weaken them.  Any coating would not stay on the surface of the fibers where friction is occurring (it would rub right off),

4. Many braids come with a coating to help hold dye and make the line more manageable. It gets trapped between the fibers, but doesn't  last a long time (nothing sticks to UHMWPE). A lubricant is either not going to stick to the coating, or stick to it and change its properties, potentially for the worse.

5. Lubricants are likely to attract dust, grit, and other particles it comes in contact with.  It will help trap these contaminants in the gaps in the weave, where they will contribute to wear when the line is under tension.  Plus trapped contaminants that stick out past the surface of the line will increase the amount of friction.

6.  You now have to be look into the health and safety aspects of touching lubricated line, and the potential environmental impact of introducing the chemicals into the waters that you fish, especially small streams and ponds.

That is what I can come up with off the top of my head.

-J
 

Noted.

I use food grade silicone...so it is safe for the environment.

Have you ever used food grade silicone spray on braided line? After a good amount of use braid loses its suppleness and slickness and the food grade silicone spray seems to rejuvenate the braid. I notice easier handling and casting after the use of the spray. It doesn't seem to affect my fishing...catch just as many fish with or without.

    As far as the silicone attracting debris...I fish in the big rivers around here and there is no way that the braid will stay clean whether its been treated or not. The silicone spray "seems" to keep the braid cleaner and I do know that the braid lasts longer than when the spray not used. I have used the same braid for over four years of constant fishing with no ill effect.

I do not know if the spray is cost effective. Its pretty expensive and I have to respray the usable line every few outings. I usually use two spray cans for a season, so that may be a major downfall.

Just wanted to know what others think and thanks for your reply.

[jurelometer]

I use food grade silicone...so it is safe for the environment.

Have you ever used food grade silicone spray on braided line? After a good amount of use braid loses its suppleness and slickness and the food grade silicone spray seems to rejuvenate the braid. I notice easier handling and casting after the use of the spray. It doesn't seem to affect my fishing...catch just as many fish with or without.

    As far as the silicone attracting debris...I fish in the big rivers around here and there is no way that the braid will stay clean whether its been treated or not. The silicone spray "seems" to keep the braid cleaner and I do know that the braid lasts longer than when the spray not used. I have used the same braid for over four years of constant fishing with no ill effect.

I do not know if the spray is cost effective. Its pretty expensive and I have to respray the usable line every few outings. I usually use two spray cans for a season, so that may be a major downfall.

Just wanted to know what others think and thanks for your reply.

You asked about lubricants for line in general, hence my note that you need to look into the properties of whatever you chose.  I took a quick look at silicone spray oils intended for food contact.

These will be generally safe for you (with one small caveat: the propellant is super flammable - I could see someone who likes to suck on a joint or cigar while fishing getting a big surprise


Environmentally, the story is not so good. Silicone oils are non-soluble polymers. So they will bioaccumulate in aquatic organisms. I will attach a snapshot from  CRCs food grade silicone SDS that lists the aquatic hazard. If you are going through two cans a year, it means that you are doing the equivalent a spraying two cans of silicone into the water (less whatever ends up on your hands, clothes and boat deck).  Are all the fish in the lake going to go belly up because you lubed your line? Unlikely.  But you are contributing to damaging the aquatic environment. How much it matters depends on whether you are fishing in the ocean, a small pond, or something in between.

I find that PE braid is ridiculously limp out of the box and gets a tiny bit limper over time as the coating washes out. 


We humans all suffer from confirmation bias.  Even scientists constantly surprise themselves when their beliefs are subjected to controlled experiments. But you don't need to convince me.  Just pointing out some stuff to consider if you want to find out for sure.

These are some examples of controlled experiments that might provide stronger evidence.

1.  Spray the line your normal way.  Drop a coated and uncoated piece of line on something dusty and gritty.  A combination of flour and granulated sugar would be a good test.  See if the treated line picks up more or less particles of which sizes.  Try freshly sprayed, and also try rubbing in the oil a bit to simulate use.

2.  Take a reel with two spools filled with the same line.    Have another person try cast as far as possible  with a very light weight that cannot reach 100 ft.  Try this with a couple friends and mix up the order.  see if spool A or B casts farther for your testers with two weights matched with a milligram scale. .  now spray one of the spools your normal way (don't let your subjects see this).  repeat the tests and see if the distances changed on the treated spool.


If it is too much work, and/or  you don't want to do it because you are already convinced, that is fine.  We are all doing this for fun
-J

[boon]

Hokay, so this is probably like the ski waxing thing (oh man that's going to annoy some people if we go down that rabbit hole....)

I would say it probably makes some level of difference, especially if you have coarse-ish braid and guides that are not the latest shiniest silicon carbide.

When you go from un-treated line, which I'll call 0% improved, to freshly coated line, which I'll call 100% improved, you probably notice the difference of going instantly from nothing to something. The washing away/wearing off of the improvement is likely not immediate, so the improvement will decrease continuously until you get back to 0. Even if this happens quite quickly, you're unlikely to notice the decrease because the difference between say 100% improved and 90% improved is not significant enough for us imprecise meatbags to notice.

There's a ton of research into ski waxing that shows that all of the benefit of the wax alone is lost within about 2 miles of skiing, however because a freshly waxed ski feels incredible compared to a completely unwaxed one, people swear by waxing their skis. Also because ski racers are fastidious about it, but for them 2 miles of improved performance is huge.

[Flat Top]

I use food grade silicone...so it is safe for the environment.

Have you ever used food grade silicone spray on braided line? After a good amount of use braid loses its suppleness and slickness and the food grade silicone spray seems to rejuvenate the braid. I notice easier handling and casting after the use of the spray. It doesn't seem to affect my fishing...catch just as many fish with or without.

    As far as the silicone attracting debris...I fish in the big rivers around here and there is no way that the braid will stay clean whether its been treated or not. The silicone spray "seems" to keep the braid cleaner and I do know that the braid lasts longer than when the spray not used. I have used the same braid for over four years of constant fishing with no ill effect.

I do not know if the spray is cost effective. Its pretty expensive and I have to respray the usable line every few outings. I usually use two spray cans for a season, so that may be a major downfall.

Just wanted to know what others think and thanks for your reply.

You asked about lubricants for line in general, hence my note that you need to look into the properties of whatever you chose.  I took a quick look at silicone spray oils intended for food contact.

These will be generally safe for you (with one small caveat: the propellant is super flammable - I could see someone who likes to suck on a joint or cigar while fishing getting a big surprise


Environmentally, the story is not so good. Silicone oils are non-soluble polymers. So they will bioaccumulate in aquatic organisms. I will attach a snapshot from  CRCs food grade silicone SDS that lists the aquatic hazard. If you are going through two cans a year, it means that you are doing the equivalent a spraying two cans of silicone into the water (less whatever ends up on your hands, clothes and boat deck).  Are all the fish in the lake going to go belly up because you lubed your line? Unlikely.  But you are contributing to damaging the aquatic environment. How much it matters depends on whether you are fishing in the ocean, a small pond, or something in between.

I find that PE braid is ridiculously limp out of the box and gets a tiny bit limper over time as the coating washes out. 


We humans all suffer from confirmation bias.  Even scientists constantly surprise themselves when their beliefs are subjected to controlled experiments. But you don't need to convince me.  Just pointing out some stuff to consider if you want to find out for sure.

These are some examples of controlled experiments that might provide stronger evidence.

1.  Spray the line your normal way.  Drop a coated and uncoated piece of line on something dusty and gritty.  A combination of flour and granulated sugar would be a good test.  See if the treated line picks up more or less particles of which sizes.  Try freshly sprayed, and also try rubbing in the oil a bit to simulate use.

2.  Take a reel with two spools filled with the same line.    Have another person try cast as far as possible  with a very light weight that cannot reach 100 ft.  Try this with a couple friends and mix up the order.  see if spool A or B casts farther for your testers with two weights matched with a milligram scale. .  now spray one of the spools your normal way (don't let your subjects see this).  repeat the tests and see if the distances changed on the treated spool.


If it is too much work, and/or  you don't want to do it because you are already convinced, that is fine.  We are all doing this for fun
-J

The few squirts of food grade silicone on my line will not make a bit of difference to the ecology of the rivers around here that I fish (Missouri and Mississippi) that are polluted with every carcinogen known to man...including radioactive materials, fertilizer, and, insecticides from farm runoff, dead carcasses, human and animal waste, and who knows what else, etc. If these fish can survive that they can surely survive my food grade silicone.

As far as casting distance...I really have no need to "cast further"....just a bit "smoother" and the silicone does that. Its kind of like waxing ski's. Good analogy, boon!
 

[wfjord]

For what it's worth, a little bit more info on UHMWPE -- the stuff Spectra and Dyneema braids are made of.
UHMWPE stands for Ultra-high-molecular-weight polyethylene. It embodies all the characteristics of high-density polyethylene (HDPE), i.e., being resistant to acids, alkalis, and many corrosive chemicals except some oxidizing acids. It has extremely low moisture absorption and a very low coefficient of friction; it is self-lubricating and is highly resistant to abrasion. Its coefficient of friction is significantly lower than that of nylon and acetal and is comparable to that of polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE, Teflon), but UHMWPE has better abrasion resistance than PTFE.

UHMWPE fibers branded as Dyneema, were commercialized in the late 1970s by the Dutch chemical company DSM, and as Spectra, commercialized by Honeywell.

UHMWPE does not absorb water readily, nor does it wet easily, which makes bonding it to other polymers difficult. For the same reasons, skin does not interact with it strongly, making the UHMWPE fiber surface feel slippery.

So the braids in question are already self-lubricating and have better abrasion resistance than Teflon. The better I understand what modern braid is the more I'm convinced that braid doesn't need additional lubricants and I should continue to keep it dry from everything but the water I'm casting it into.

[MarkT]

If you want a coated line just go with power pro and call it good.

[jurelometer]

So we have established that silicone oil is a hazard to aquatic life, bad enough to get listed the  SDS, but we haven't gone any deeper. At this point, I personally wouldn't be putting a couple cans worth per year into the local waterway.

The casting distance test would prove (or disprove) your belief that casting is smoother with the coating.

Now moving on. (You will probably like this part better  )

I tried to come up with reasons why adding silicone oil would help.  My best theory was that the stuff imbedded in the braid to bind the fibers and hold the dye (I.e., the coating) was getting in on the sliding action and increasing the coefficient of friction.  But if that was the case, the manufacturer would add some lubricant into the coating blend to drop it back down as much as possible.  Now I had something to look for, and sure enough- buried in the babblespeak marketing nonsense in the Daiwa Australia page:

EvoSilicone Si3+ increases wear resistance and durability by approximately 1.3 times of "Si2+". It is smoother and more scratch resistant creating a line that is more durable and has better handling providing trouble free line management.

Source:  https://daiwafishing.com.au/pages/line-technology


Silicone!

So my working theory now is that if you have uncoated  braid, it is plenty slick, and any silicone oil you add is not going to help much or  hang around long. But most PE braid fishing line comes coated.  If you have a line that still has most of it coating left, and it uses silicone for a coating lubricant, then replenishing the silicone would probably have the short term benefit that  Boon described and that you noted observing.

If the coating is not using silicone, dunno. This could get more complicated.

For me personally,  PE braid is slick with  the factory coating,  and still slick when the coating wears off.  There is no problem to solve. I am loathe to apply an aquatic toxin in any amount if it is unnecessary.

-J

[JasonGotaProblem]

I for one am glad this discussion was started. I missed debating the pros and cons of  novel things we could do to improve fishing outcomes, instead of arguing about AI.

[jurelometer]

I for one am glad this discussion was started. I missed debating the pros and cons of  novel things we could do to improve fishing outcomes, instead of arguing about AI.

The AI debate was a necessary one.  I wish it had led to some action.

But getting back to your point,  What usually kills a good debate is a closed mind.  It has to be a battle of ideas not people.  If you're in it to win it, you are an impediment.

And getting back to the debate at hand,  I remember this test:

https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,41240.msg487720.html#msg487720

This shows that pulling fresh braid over four stainless guides under significant load recorded zero measured force required to overcome friction. We would need to go down at least another decimal place in accuracy to find anything.   And remember that sliding friction  equation:  the coefficient of friction (smoothness) multiplied by the force pressing the surfaces together.  When line is shooting through the guides on a cast, there is negligible force pressing the line against the guide rings.  So we are going to have to add a few more decimal places before we might see a difference.

In summary, the amount of friction involved when line is passing through the guides during a cast is so small, that attempts to optimize it are extremely unlikely to affect casting performance.  And that goes for supposedly premium ceramic inserts too, not just line lubricants.   It is a small number, that gets added to several much larger numbers, the largest being the amount fluid friction from  the air on the line, which unlike sliding friction on the guide rings is a function of surface area of all the line in flight.

You can't make a noticeable dent on a big number by screwing around on the margins.

I will be happy to be proven wrong, but I am still not seeing it yet.

And I'm not going to touch the ski wax debate

-J

[oc1]

In summary, the amount of friction involved when line is passing through the guides during a cast is so small, that attempts to optimize it are extremely unlikely to affect casting performance.

This would seem to fly in the face of the now famous Fuji KR Concept.  I always suspected that Fuji was full of bologna.

The last thing I want is greasy fishing line.