Testing star drag with luggage scale

[Decker]

Here's something similar to what I mentioned seeing in an older discussion about using Delrin underneath the star. Acetal bellvilles:

Will such a washer permit easier turning of the star, thus allowing higher hand-turned drag numbers? Thinking about ordering a few.

Yes, the belville tension is another thing!

...know your limits and stay within them

True but, ironic that these are the words of "Maxed Out" 

[oldmanjoe]

Something to watch for ,is that the first friction is thick enought and the key washer going in can compress it , watch/check  the inner ring at the bottom of the cup, that the key washer is not hitting it .      Also check the under washer , to thin and the gear sleeve will sit higher , the key washer bottoms out on the sleeve flat . 

[Decker]

Something to watch for ,is that the first friction is thick enought and the key washer going in can compress it , watch/check  the inner ring at the bottom of the cup, that the key washer is not hitting it .      Also check the under washer , to thin and the gear sleeve will sit higher , the key washer bottoms out on the sleeve flat .

Thanks.  What do you mean by "first friction is thick enough"? It is not very thick - .5mm, so I don't know that it can be compressed.  However, the inside ridge on the bottom of the gear has been sanded off (can be seen in later photos). The 1st keyed washer is not bottoming out. Also the ear slots were deepened. 

I could probably learn something by taking it apart now and looking for marks.

[oldmanjoe]

Pictures to help explain .   First picture is the key washer on the gear sleeve .  Second picture is the gear in place with no friction in place , but you can see how hight the bottom flat is to the bottom of the gear cup .    Your first friction has to sit higher than the sleeve bottom flat.
     Third picture is the slot for the ear washers , you may have to deepen them .

[alantani]

try a carbontex drag under the main gear.  i know alot of guys use delrin, but i've never been a fan.

[MACflyer]

I'm certainly learning from this post! Looking at your drag washers, the id looks pretty large compared to some Senator washers I'm more familiar with. Wondering if there's enough contact area to get 5# from each washer? Maybe 4# is about right...

[jurelometer]

Here's something similar to what I mentioned seeing in an older discussion about using Delrin underneath the star. Acetal bellvilles:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/143869284998?_skw=acetal+bellville+penn+505&itmmeta=01M61W3JW5R4R07F1SBMG51J69&hash=item217f471286:g:d~IAAOSwcLRfxvew&itmprp=enc%3AAQALAAABACHNgUiiE%2FjQhlDTaMiAde%2FsfJ35OoTKBYbByD6RbTZnhw%2ByWS4icO9RQk9SggnrmJhrDQYc37sKkQ2iaulBzRgoXr%2FiiPJm1QFV9PxkY1R9BlLpGxidJ4AgxQdnoDne6mBbif1RokAXFwtbCXTeep6dJjZcNI911OAljxhwh2mL9wQhfh34HybdPaOYdwpBww8qDoj39xowZ%2BHDoJlVWK8rnZgu9Wr1ueAYX9te4Us7B5w0yB25yeE%2B1EePVkah6VbGYt4aEzCxwbg1c4VeYxeYnWVJv1bsoQ21jPzymDpKWtRGiOMb3chA8dTQpqe%2FF0Vmi51KcpSLfWCfz5ePwYw%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR76vjrywaA

Will such a washer permit easier turning of the star to achieve a greater clamping force— thus allowing for higher hand-turned drag numbers? Thinking about ordering a few.

Not really. There is no such thing as an acetal belleville [correction- there are acetal bellevilles- thanks Oc1]. 

Bellevilles are a type of spring.  A couple of flat acetal (trade name Delrin)  washers just below the star can remove a bit a friction when tightening, but the relative  effect should be pretty minimal when cranking down hard.  And the outside of the stack gets hottest first when the drag is used, which is an issue (more on this below).

What makes the star harder to turn is the same thing that gives you more drag- more clamping load. 

The things that can help you get more drag  for the same amount of torque (tightening force) are :

1.  Reduce the the force lost to thread friction when tightening by cleaning and greasing the theads

2.  Add additional drag surfaces - this increases the amount of drag that you get for the same clampimg force.

3.  Change the average diameter of the the drag surfaces - a larger ring with a bigger hole - means more breaking distance per revolution.

-----

The undergear washer is actually primarily a thrust bearing surface.  It needs to provide a flat, aligned sliding surface so that the gear is aligned to the main shaft/sleeve, and therefore the pinion.  It will also acts as a drag surface between the main gear and the ratchet at the bottom of the sleeve.

Delrin/Acetal makes an excellent thrust bearing at normal temps, so it  will often perform better as a thrust bearing with smaller diameter ratchets. The drag might be smoother, and then  you can set it a little higher without it getting sticky.  But Delrin starts gets squishy around 200F or so, so maybe not as good for a long run.

Alan likes to use an actual drag washer here, and others like to use Delrin or stock phenolic resin washer.  How well one works vs the other depends on how much load is involved, the design of the shaft/sleeve, gear bottom face and ratchet, how well polished the surfaces are, and how hot the spot gets during a run.

Rulon would be a good candidate for the best compromise material, but I don't think anyone has tried it yet.

I think that there are several threads threads here  that debate undergear washers.


-J

[oc1]

The photos of those acetal washers do look curved like a bellville.  It is going to provide some tension, but such a small amount that it really would be for, as they say, lighter line.... like less than four pounds.

[jurelometer]

The photos of those acetal washers do look curved like a bellville.  It is going to provide some tension, but such a small amount that it really would be for, as they say, lighter line.... like less than four pounds.

Oooh.  There is a such a thing as acetal bellevilles!  I stand corrected. 

The modulus of elasticity for acetel is 2.8 GPa vs around 200 for stainless steel, so the load they can take is extremely minimal, and that is at room temp. Get them a bit warm, and it is going to be even more minimal.  And on the outside of a drag stack, they are going to get hot if you are actually applying any drag.

They make no sense in a star drag stack.  The point of springs on the drag stack is to allow more travel for  the same clamping load,  The bellevilles should not be spinning on other stack components during drag, so the coefficient of friction doesn't matter. It only matters how good a spring that they are. And stainless is a better spring.

Sorry, but I can't see how these are not a bad idea.  As for the subject at hand, they will just bottom out, and will not make the drag tightening any easier.

-J

[cbar45]

It appears the purpose of this acetal under-star washer is to provide an extended range of light-to-moderate drag at the lower end of the spectrum. Sure, it will bottom out eventually...but how much pressure is being exerted on the drag stack at that point, versus when a traditional all-metal spring arrangement bottoms out? More pressure? Less? Exactly the same? Be interesting to do a side-by-side comparison.

[Decker]

thank you, gents.... gonna take some time to digest all this

[Keta]

Bend the ears up on the bottom eared washer or mill/grind the slots deeper.

Delrin underwashers can melt, CF does not. 

[JasonGotaProblem]

I think as a concept the delrin Belleville might make sense to add adjustment at low drag values for a freshwater ultralight where you want that adjustability in the 0-4# range.

The "13 fishing" "aero" I think it was called had drag washers that looked 2 delrin Belleville washers glued back to back.

[Decker]

I'm not going to invest anything into the lightweight belvilles, but I might try to find some heavy stainless steel ones to smooth out the drag adjustment later.  Seems like the springiness would be more valuable for maintaining drag pressure while loosening, but my focus right now is on tightening, looking to determine the reasonable max (but not get "maxed out" ).

This is all new to me.  Although I've followed posts here about drag matters, this is my first time applying distilled AT.com knowledge. Here's what I'm thinking:

• The area of the carbontex drag disks is relatively small. They are the same size as Penn 114 (not 114H). They could be slightly bigger in the middle (around the sleeve), but I'm guessing most of the force is applied to the outside of the disk, so not much would be gained from a tighter fit.  Also, they are only .5mm thick, so there's not much room for compression.
• I'll disassemble it later and check the ears.  As I mentioned before, the ring on the inside bottom was sanded off, and the ear slots were drilled down, so the clearances should be good. Three things I'd like to check: 1) that the top eared washer is actually grabbing the top edge of the gear, not sliding,  2) that the first eared washer is getting as far down as possible, and 3) that the ears are standing up to the torque.
• My experience in hand-tightening to about 12 lbs., might mean that the belvilles have bottomed-out at that point, and that applying more torque to the star meant a small and difficult compression of the carbontex (using tools).  Might heavier belvilles be useful here? It may be working as well as it can with the current design.  There is no option that I'm aware of for a bigger star.
• Interesting about the under-gear possibility of melting.  My target usage is for deep bottom fishing in depth of 300-600 ft on the NE US Atlantic Coast.  This reel will work well for jigging there as well.  So the Delrin is a no-no for tuna runs, but would probably work fine for deep-dropping. If I happen to hook a a bluefin or swordfish by-catch (I should be so lucky,) the reel may blow up.  Good to know.
• How does the 1:3 drag:line strength ratio apply for my intended fishing?
• My close friend Claude told me that the higher retrieve ratio of the reel works against drag strength.  This reel has a 4.2:1 ratio.  It would be interesting to compare this reel to one with stock gears and the same 5-stack and I may do that in the future.

 

Anyway, it is fun to see how far this reel can be pushed.  I have a 400H and 600H waiting in the wings.

P.S. Does anyone put a washer between the gear sleeve and bridge? Or just heavy grease?

[Maxed Out]

A washer under the gear sleeve will not gain you any more drag. All your drag happens above the ratchet on the bottom of the gear sleeve