typical drag washer configuration

[alantani]

i went to smoothdrag.com and pulled off a drawing done by dawn herself.  here's the drawing....

[alantani]

Hi Alan, I am currently upgrading the drag on a Penn 114h to HT-100's and am a bit confused when it comes to installing the washers into the main gear. Do you know if the 114h is a 5 drag set or a 3 drag set?  Once I finish installing the washers should they be flush with the main gear?  When installing a carbon fiber drag should you always alternate between carbon fiber and metal washers or can you have carbon fiber washers back to back?  In your experience what is the best way to set up the drag on this reel?

there was an old stack of three composite drag washers that were installed in the older reels.  they should be upgraded to a stack of 5 HT-100's.  here's the way they should be put together.  http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=60.0  the keyed metal washer and the top drag washer can stick over the top of the main gear with no problem.  the slotted metal washer (with the nubs) has to sit inside the main gear. 

[alantani]

penn 555 drag question

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star drag is starting to back its self off as the line is pulled out....any ideas whats causing it ??

here's a diagram from dawn. she's the lady that owns smoothdrag.com. note that metal washers alternate with drag washers. note also that there are two types of metal washers. the keyed metal washers ride on the drive shaft (aka gear sleeve). the slotted metal washers have nubs on the outside and ride with the main gear. the metal washers have to alternate "keyed, slotted, keyed" so that the top metal washer rides with the drive shaft. if you have your stack set up so that the metal washers are oriented "keyed, keyed, slotted, then the top metal washer rides with the main gear.

now what happens is that the line is pulled out, the spool moves backwards, the spool moves the pinion gear, the pinion gear moves the main gear, the main gear moves the slotted metal washer, the slotted metal washer moves the spacer, the spacer moves the star and the star backs up counter clockwise until you loose all drag pressure. this is the most common way that this problem occurs. your reel had to have been assembled incorrectly by someone. a reel could NEVER come from the factory like this. alan

[alantani]

Hi Alan.  First, thanks for all the informtion, posts, and tips!  You have a big fan club up here in Oregon on Ifish.  I am doing my first reel service, Penn 113H.  Are the metal washers in the drag stack supposed to be flat?  Belvilles are used only in lever drag reels, right?  Drag washers in star drag reels should be flat?  I'm asking because after I reassembled it, there's a little bit of slop (axial) in the reel handle.  I noticed the old metal washers were not quite flat.  Was wonding if I assembled the parentheses wrong?  There's also a little grinding (freespool is good; I can feel the grinding in the handle when the gears are engaged) - I was going to take apart and clean the gears better.  Thanks again, Dylan

chances are the gear teeth are shredded a little.  if you want to get it smooth again, you will most likely have to replace the main and pinion gears. 

the keyed and sloted metal washers are stamped from stainless steel.  there is always some slight curvature.  under pressure, they flatten out just fine.  the proof is in the drag pressure anyway.  they could be waved in an out a half dozen times.  if the drag works, it works. 

regarding the bellevilles, you will find them in many star drag stacks, just above the last final keyed metal washer.  the purpose is to distribute pressure downward to the outer edges of the drag washer.  if pressure is being applied only by the spacer tube to the center of the keyed metal washer, then you might get a little less drag pressure as a result.  regardless, just put it together using the parts you have and give it a yank.  if you get enough drag pressure, then call it a day.  particularly with the older penns, the tolerances are so loose on these reels that you could spend an entire day trying to dial it in just perfectly and never get it right.  trust me on this one, i've been there.  alan

[Lunker Larry]

This part of the statement is confusing to me.  She mentions that when the line is pulled out the spool turns backwards. Am I missing something? When line is pulled the spool moves forward as the line is over the top of the spool.

Here's the part of the statement.

now what happens is that the line is pulled out, the spool moves backwards, the spool moves the pinion gear, the pinion gear moves the main gear, the main gear moves the slotted metal washer, the slotted metal washer moves the spacer, the spacer moves the star and the star backs up counter clockwise until you loose all drag pressure. this is the most common way that this problem occurs. your reel had to have been assembled incorrectly by someone. a reel could NEVER come from the factory like this. alan

[Swami805]

When you're winding in line the spool goes forward, when line is going out the spool is going backwards, at least that's what I took from it. I guess it depends on how you look at it, I get what you're saying though, line going out would have the spool going towards the front of the reel or forward

[oldmanjoe]

Think of it as going forward in a car , Than shift into reverse the gear  train has to take up the slack from one direction to the other . 
              "now what happens is that the line is pulled out, the spool moves backwards, the spool moves the pinion gear, the pinion gear moves the main gear, the main gear moves the slotted metal washer, the slotted metal washer moves the spacer, the spacer moves the star and the star backs up counter clockwise "
                                                     " the spacer moves the star and the star backs up counter clockwise "

              "until you loose all drag pressure. this is the most common way that this problem occurs. your reel had to have been assembled incorrectly by someone. a reel could NEVER come from the factory like this."

This part of the statement is saying that when you have a :ear washer "  instead of the key washer up against the spacer/ drag star .

[jurelometer]

This part of the statement is confusing to me.  She mentions that when the line is pulled out the spool turns backwards. Am I missing something? When line is pulled the spool moves forward as the line is over the top of the spool.

Here's the part of the statement.

now what happens is that the line is pulled out, the spool moves backwards, the spool moves the pinion gear, the pinion gear moves the main gear, the main gear moves the slotted metal washer, the slotted metal washer moves the spacer, the spacer moves the star and the star backs up counter clockwise until you loose all drag pressure. this is the most common way that this problem occurs. your reel had to have been assembled incorrectly by someone. a reel could NEVER come from the factory like this. alan

Yeah.  Not completely clear. Since we are talking about rotation, forward and backward are relative, and we can interpret the meaning differently. 

These kind of descriptions are a balancing act.  A short explanation  makes it difficult to provide the full picture, but a detailed explanation can get a bit complex, requiring more effort to follow.

Here is a detailed explanation:

Under drag, the spool rotates in the opposite direction from winding, which causes a star drag reel's pinion and main gear to also switch rotational direction.  In a right handed reel, this means that the main gear will turn counterclockwise.


Star drag stacks can include both  keyed (turns with shaft) and eared (turns with main gear) washers. 

If the top (closest to the handle) of the keyed  or eared washers is eared, it will turn counterclockwise with the main gear.  Since this last washer is pressed against a series of spacer washers and a spacer sleeve out to the star, this top washer will transfer the counterclockwise rotational load from the main gear to the star.  And since the shaft/gear sleeve is locked by the anti reverse, this combination can cause the star to rotate on the shaft threads, loosening the drag.

If the last of the keyed and eared washers is keyed, the spacer washers/spacer sleeve are not subject to rotational load from drag being taken, since the main shaft does not rotate under drag.


-J

[Lunker Larry]

Thanks J. That is a lot clearer. This is the drag stack of the 401 (lefty) Tranx. Doe's it follow your description?

[oldmanjoe]

Yes that is the correct orientation .  What is nice about that set up, is the spacer has the dogs that drop in to the top washer , easy to remember .

[Lunker Larry]

I'm aware of drag washer orientation. I just want to clarify that because the top washer is keyed and fixed to the drive shaft it will transfer the counter clockwise directional load to the star drag if the drag is over tightened restricting its functionality.

[JasonGotaProblem]

If top washer is keyed to drive shaft then the spacers above it (between it and the star) won't be rotating when line is pulled out.

So it's the opposite of what you're saying. If the top washer is keyed to drive shaft it WILL NOT transfer rotational load anywhere above it because it won't rotate relative to the drive shaft. If eared to the gear instead, it will transfer rotational load.

[oldmanjoe]

I'm aware of drag washer orientation. I just want to clarify that because the top washer is keyed and fixed to the drive shaft it will transfer the counter clockwise directional load to the star drag if the drag is over tightened restricting its functionality.

Just remember that the drive shaft does not turn when you are in drag mode " dogged down "

[Lunker Larry]

This part of the statement is confusing to me.  She mentions that when the line is pulled out the spool turns backwards. Am I missing something? When line is pulled the spool moves forward as the line is over the top of the spool.

Here's the part of the statement.

now what happens is that the line is pulled out, the spool moves backwards, the spool moves the pinion gear, the pinion gear moves the main gear, the main gear moves the slotted metal washer, the slotted metal washer moves the spacer, the spacer moves the star and the star backs up counter clockwise until you loose all drag pressure. this is the most common way that this problem occurs. your reel had to have been assembled incorrectly by someone. a reel could NEVER come from the factory like this. alan

Yeah.  Not completely clear. Since we are talking about rotation, forward and backward are relative, and we can interpret the meaning differently. 

These kind of descriptions are a balancing act.  A short explanation  makes it difficult to provide the full picture, but a detailed explanation can get a bit complex, requiring more effort to follow.

Here is a detailed explanation:

Under drag, the spool rotates in the opposite direction from winding, which causes a star drag reel's pinion and main gear to also switch rotational direction.  In a right handed reel, this means that the main gear will turn counterclockwise.


Star drag stacks can include both  keyed (turns with shaft) and eared (turns with main gear) washers. 

If the top (closest to the handle) of the keyed  or eared washers is eared, it will turn counterclockwise with the main gear.  Since this last washer is pressed against a series of spacer washers and a spacer sleeve out to the star, this top washer will transfer the counterclockwise rotational load from the main gear to the star.  And since the shaft/gear sleeve is locked by the anti reverse, this combination can cause the star to rotate on the shaft threads, loosening the drag.

If the last of the keyed and eared washers is keyed, the spacer washers/spacer sleeve are not subject to rotational load from drag being taken, since the main shaft does not rotate under drag.
 
-J

OK. So in the tranx configuration (keyed, dogged, keyed) there is no transfer of the counterclockwise rotation to the Star. Correct?
What if the drag is cranked down to where it no longer slips. Would this alter anything?

I hate to beleauger this but I'm trying to figure out how these reels drag loosens and i very much appreciate everyones thoughts on this.

[alantani]

I'm trying to figure out how these reels drag loosens and i very much appreciate everyone's thoughts on this.

for very long runs. there is such a thing as drag fade for greased carbon fiber drags.  to get to that point, the drag stack would be too hot to touch.  the other is braid that is slipping on the spool, or a spool that is slipping on the spool shaft.  as far as the star backing off, just not the position of the star relative the handle arm.  as long as the star doesn't move, then you're good.  a simple twist tie would help you answer that question.