penn drag washer surface area

[broadway]

Very interesting!

[Alto Mare]

Always entertaining, Doc. I had something similar in mind to extend the gears on the easy access drag plates for the 114H, using a ss sleeve with ears, but not hexagonal. You always amaze me.
Let me know if i need to test it for you
Sal

[Cone]

Very Nice!  I have thought about keyed drag washers but an insert never crossed my mind. Lots of talent here! Bob

[George4741]

Doc, that's very innovative!

About spool radius and gear ratio:

Yes, that matters too. Not only as a result of the greater lever arm and inherent moment of torque of a larger diameter spool vs a smaller one, but it should also be considered that the reel's gear ratio offers a mechanical advantage when operated in reverse- as is the case on an outgoing line.

I also thought the above statement was very likely true from some unscientific tests I did on a 349 and 349H.  They have different gear ratios but I installed the same size HT100 drag washers.  The drag results were quite different between the two reels.  The slower retrieve 349 had the higher drag numbers.

[Bryan Young]

Essentially, the Baja special has 7 friction surfaces where as the normal 5+1 has 6 contact surfaces.

What do I mean?  The baja special CF has friction to each surface individually.  You may need to sit and think about it as I did.

The others, once drag washer has a total of one contact surface as it will spin with the spinning metal washer against the non-spinning metal washer.

I hope this makes sense.

I like the Baja Special drag method as it utilizes both draw washer surfaces for friction.

[Alto Mare]

The number of functional sides on the washers is 7 on the 1+5 stack, not 6, just like the baja.
I almost bent one of those metal washers from the bajas with my hands, be careful whe handling those .

I just double checked and it's actually 9 surfaces that create friction on the 113H with 1+5 stack, that's without the one for under the gear.

[Bryan Young]

Hi Sal, I'd hate to disagree with my buddies, but I have to disagree. The drag washer in a 113h for example has 5 drag washers in the drag stack, not counting the one under the gear. When the spool spins against the drag, the eared washer rotates while the keyed washers remain stationary. The ht-100 between the washer will eithe remain stationary or quite possibly rotate with the eared washers, and therefore, I have concluded that the actual friction surface of each HT-100 drag washer is essentially one surface instead of two.

This differs from the Baja special where the drag washers rotate and friction is applied on each surface against the stationary keyed washer. I hope it makes sense. If not, I'll draw something up.

Bryan

[Alto Mare]

Never a hard feelings buddy,
I hear what you're saying, let me ask you one question: let's take the CF washer between the keyed and eared washers, when you apply pressure, which washer do you think that CF rotates on, the keyed or the eared. Drag pressure has a lot to do with it, I know the first CF washer is useless at the bottom, but I still believe at a certain setting you'll get 9 working at the same time.....but I've been wrong before

[Bryan Young]

Very good question Sal. I really don't know. I guess it depends on which metal washer and CF combination has the greatest coefficient of friction will dertemine if the drag washer spins with the eared washer or stays stationary with the keyed washer. Lets say that it stationary with the keyed washer, then only one surface has a lower coefficient of friction and that will resist the pressure of the spinning eared washer. There, in this case, you will only have one active drag surface. I'm sites its more like a combination, and it may be that more than a total if one surface is passively adding friction, and quite possibly equalling more than one total surface area, but definitely less than the total of two surface areas.

[Ron Jones]

I have to agree with Bryan. Once a disk has broken free it will spin with whatever washer it is still in contact with, I can't see the disk breaking free on both sides unless their was something else hanging the disk up and that would not be good. I haven't spent a lot of time looking at the Baja Special, but in all honesty does it really matter? Senators with 3+1 non greased disks have been killing fish for generations. A tank is bullet proof and inexpensive, how much drag do you need?

I'm NOT insinuating that a Baja isn't a great reel, I just think a Tank is as great a reel.

Ron

[Robert Janssen]

Regarding which washer slides on a floating washer, trust me. It is as said- the rule is that only one surface may be counted.

These arrangements are not unknown to science, and methods with which to calculate them can be found described in engineering literature, not leastly in automotive context.

But here, have a look at it in Penn's own words:





...and that's how it works.

Regardless of how many discs there are and how much drag is needed, it is still just nice to know that this arrangement does what it does in a more efficient, space-saving manner.

And that so much drag might not be needed doesn't really matter. That just goes to say that one needn't tighten the drag star as hard. (Maybe my car has a gazillion horsepower. So what; it doesn't mean that i need to use them all, or even some of them)

Doc.

.

[Keta]

Regarding which washer slides on a floating washer, trust me. It is as said- the rule is that only one surface may be counted.

Yup, the "float" will even out no mater what the CF washer is doing.

[Dr. Jekyll - AKA MeL B]

I do wonder what would happen to the ears on those washers, if I had them in my 14/0 , Maybe I would get ground pepper
[/quote]

maybe kevlar reinforced CF washers will hold up

for me it's not just a matter of more drag, i just want it more progressive and smoother.

also another way to use multiple eared CF washers is to add more slots to the main gear and then fabricate your own "winged", as per Doc, CF washers. then you can get rid of your eared metal washers. a lot of work though but where's the satisfaction when it's easy work? ?? i want to do this to my other SD's but have to get hold of CF sheets strong enough. maybe the >1MM sheets from Dawn will hold only one way to find out

[Alto Mare]

I do wonder what would happen to the ears on those washers, if I had them in my 14/0 , Maybe I would get ground pepper

maybe kevlar reinforced CF washers will hold up
for me it's not just a matter of more drag, i just want it more progressive and smoother.
[/quote]
I'm not saying more drag, I'm saying if the eared CF washers of the same material would hold up in larger reels .
Personally, I don't believe they would.

[Dr. Jekyll - AKA MeL B]

hello alto mare! this statement "for me it's not just a matter of more drag, i just want it more progressive and smoother" was not meant as a direct reply to you. it's a general statement.