Tuning a Penn Spinfisher

[slugmeister]

@Brewcrafter, you will have to fill me in as I only fish freshwater. Does the electrical tape turn gummy in salt water? If it makes any difference, I'm sure all I've used is 3M  33+, since that's pretty much the only tape I carry besides colored tape. It might have been super 88, but I never buy that at home. I've taken line off reels I'm sure were on there 10 years and the tape was still good enough I could have left it on there if I wanted. I can understand why the flex wrap works though, it does the same thing without the strong adhesive. Why use grease though?

For freshwater, your concerns are NOT the same level as the salty guys!  The concern being that electrical tape can trap residue that over time leads to corrosion on aluminum or metal spools (I did a quick search but could not find the post from Alan I was looking for yet).  As far as the very mild layer of grease...
In a saltwater environment gives a layer of protection to the underlying metal....
If you do it on the "deep" areas of the reel, this is line that very infrequently gets dumped off the spool - up near the edges line abrasion of putting line off/on likely wipes off any protection (and may also have a downside of leaving residue on your line down toward the "business end" that could be detrimental to fish bites).  Over the years folks have used car wax, Chap Stick, you name it to help coat and protect spools.  Again, in freshwater your concerns are minimal!  Loving your in depth study on these Penn Spinners...thanks for the info- john

I didn't even think about the corrosion aspect of it. No, that's not something we worry about in fresh water. Doesn't that flex wrap soak up water? Or maybe it dries quick too? Do you have to rinse off your reels when you get home?

[jurelometer]

Let's play nice here.

I also disagree (respectfully) with Tommy, but  not as strongly.  I do know that he knows more about vintage spinning reels (including fishing them, not just collecting) than pretty much the rest of us combined.  If he has concerns about nylon busting plastic spools it is worth listening to, even if the exact mechanism for failure might be debatable.

Knowing Tommy a little. I would guess that he probably doesn't mind you challenging him (respectfully) about not using mono, but he is probably not happy with the implication that he is a Californian

I'll put my comments on the subject itself in a separate post.

-J

[jurelometer]

If you put enough nylon backing on an old plastic spool, and pack it tight enough, you run the risk of busting the spool.  The risk varies by spool model, the thickness of the line and how much tension that you load it under. Us saltwater guys that packed 40 lb mono onto plastic conventional reel spools and pulled harder on bigger fish broke them regularly.  I agree with the OP's point about spools not blowing up  left and right despite the near universal use of nylon line.  I suspect that this failure is less common for the average trout, bass or musky fisherman that don't put much load on the spool, and spinning reel spool shapes are generally vulnerable to this type of failure than  conventional spools.  But specific models might be more of a risk, especially as they age.

As to moisture:  Nylon is capable of absorbing a significant amount of moisture.  If the moisture goes in, the line gets bigger. But if the line is already packed tight, it won't absorb as much moisture. Sort of like a sponge that is squeezed absorbing less water. And wet nylon becomes more malleable and elastic. I don't see moisture as a major contributor to the risk, but this is sort of a moot point.  The risk is nylon expansion, regardless of the exact mechanism.


Now let's get back to using nylon backing.  Assuming that you want to minimize the risk:

The farther from the arbor, the more leverage on the spool walls, so if you are using a modest amount of nylon, not much risk to a vulnerable spool.  So the nylon question comes into play if you are using it for a significant amount of filler.

As to the arbor and tape/wrap/short section of nylon:

Many of us here believe that tape or a short section of nylon to prevent braid slipping is not really necessary.  You just need a couple extra wraps before the arbor knot and a slightly longer tag.  There is debate on this exact topic on this site, and I would invite you to read up on it a bit and decide for yourself.

Applying tape can unbalance a smaller conventional spool, and in saltwater, tape, and to a lesser extent stretch wrap,  can keep saltwater from fully evaporating, and wet and salty  (an electrolyte solution) corrodes metals much more quickly than dry and salty.  But this is primarily a concern with metal spools in saltwater.

Do you have to rinse off your reels when you get home?

You freshwater guys have it too easy!   Fighting corrosion is a losing battle, but it is the primary concern in saltwater reel maintanence.  I usually soak myreels in a bucket of warm fresh water one a week, but most folk here prefer a gentle wash and more frequent breakdown/clean/reasembly.  Many recommend unspooling braid and trying to desalt it at the end of the season. spools are coated with grease or wax as well.


-J

[slugmeister]

Maybe I was too harsh, but I still find the idea that monofilament, the #1 most popular fishing line in the world for longer than any other type of fishing line ever, is somehow going to damage a spool that wasn't already trash is ridiculous. I am sorry I said Tommy was from California, it looks like I saw Brewcrafters location by accident. It is kind of odd now that I see Tommy is from Nebraska, me from South Dakota, we are practically neighbors. I'm quite confident nobody around here is running giant conventional reels with plastic spools and 40 pound mono backing. The biggest fish we have is blue catfish, and I've never seen a catfish guy running a setup like that.

So while maybe there may be a small special circumstances where mono may not be the idea backing, I am fully confident it is the best choice for the other 98% of the time, and pretty much 100% of the time around here in South Dakota and Nebraska. Since this is a Penn spinfisher thread, I really, really doubt the 710 plastic spool is going to be harmed by anything, there's nothing thin or frail about it. Plastic spools are pretty rare on the other spinfishers from what I've seen. All of the Z series have aluminum spools.

I too have got away with running braid straight on an aluminum spool, but I think it depends on what line you are using. It really comes down to how waxy it is. Something like Berkley x9 I don't think would hold onto a spool well at all. Since we don't have corrosion issues, I don't see any reason to not use electrical tape, or flex tape, or whatever other rubbery type stuff you have. Since I always choose reels a little bigger than needed, and only like to put 150 yards or meters of line on, I almost exclusively use mono backing on my reels.

Yes we have it pretty easy for gear care in fresh water it seems. There's a lot of things I would never have thought about. I have fished in Florida and Texas in salt water, but it doesn't seem any harm comes from a single trip. You might be surprised how hard musky guys can be on reels. A lot of the most popular lures are over 10 ounces. There's some over a full pound. That's not what I call easy on the spool. Before super braid, a lot of those guys ran dacron braid, not because it saved the spool, but because it has the same advantages as super braid such as low stretch. Muskies are not particularly line shy or deep water fish, so it worked really well. Nowadays most guys are running super heavy braids like 80 pound, more just to handle the lures. The fish fight itself is nothing by comparison.

[Bill B]

Gentlemen, I strongly urge everyone to keep this discussion civil and refrain from personal attacks.  One thing that makes this forum so good is the HEALTHY dialog between accomplished fishermen and reel mechanics. 

One thing to keep in mind is the varied circumstances each of us fish in.  Whether lake, pond, stream, river, surf, offshore, etc.  Each brings its own pitfalls.

After reading through this thread I see four different fishing types.

What works for the stream fisherman does not necessarily cross over to off shore tuna, and visaversa.

Personally I have seen a Penn 85 with a plastic spool, Penn Jigmaster with plastic spool, and a second generation J.A.Coxe with a three piece metal spool, all suffer breakage from mono contraction.  All three are conventional (multiplier) reels.

However I have never seen a spinning reel suffer damage from mono.

The end result here, is you may disagree with someone else's opinion and they may disagree with yours.  So be it, but keep it civil.

Bill

[oldmanjoe]

  Here is proof that mono line can jack apart a spool.    You may need to catch bigger fighting fish to experience this phenomenon .  When mono relaxes on the spool after hard drag , it subject to pop.      One of the reasons why I build aluminium spools .  Just saying it does happen ! 

[Bill B]

Wow!  Thanks Joe, never seen a spinning reel pop.  Bill

[slugmeister]

Well I'll be. I shot an offer on a 714z, and they actually accepted it. $60 plus shipping is more than I wanted to pay, but it's way cheaper than any others listed online. I'll get to play with that soon and hopefully have some more notes on spinfisher's soon. Chances are I'm going to sell both my 712's, I just don't like them much.

[Bill B]

Cool beans.  Bill

[Midway Tommy]

First off let me say that most people here are well aware that I know very little and could care less regarding conventional reels. Over 50 years ago I took a 5 gallon bucket full of level winds and dumped them in the middle of Woman Lake in north central MN. The few I now have left are hand-me-down heirlooms from my granddad and father. 

I also disagree (respectfully) with Tommy, but  not as strongly......... If he has concerns about nylon busting plastic spools it is worth listening to, even if the exact mechanism for failure might be debatable.

Knowing Tommy a little. I would guess that he probably doesn't mind you challenging him (respectfully) about not using mono, but he is probably not happy with the implication that he is a Californian

-J

It doesn't really bother me that much, Dave. Some Left Coast & Central Plains ideology may differ a little but I have an awful lot of CA friends and acquaintances that are really nice people, and overall, we all have a lot in common.   

Bill B

April 26, 2024, 07:35:01 PM
Wow!  Thanks Joe, never seen a spinning reel pop. 

Bill

Here's a few I saved that came with some of the reels I have purchased over the years. I kept them because I thought at some point when I get all my other projects completed I might put them back together using nylon or aluminum binder posts and Chicago screws. At that point they would be stronger than original. I've probably also thrown twice that many away.



Most people that have extensively serviced, repaired and/or collected older/vintage open faced spinning reels over the years are well aware that monofilament line can play havoc on certain types of plastic and graphite spools. Some can with withstand the stress and some won't. The main problem is you never know which spool has been overly stressed or has had a little too much UV degradation until it breaks while in use under the stress & pressure. The main culprit is the expansion and contraction of the mono, especially a full spool of it. For those that live in climates that see hot and cold extremes the contraction is exacerbated when the person goes fishing in late fall and the mono soaks up a bunch of water. If he/she lives where it gets extremely cold and then stores their rod/reel in the garage or leaves it in their unconditioned boat over the winter the exposure to extreme freezing temperatures makes the mono contract even more. I've known a few people who have done this that went to use their outfit in the spring only to find the front flange of the spool had popped off with line unraveled out the front of the reel/spool. The best way to combat this problem is, if the fishing you do doesn't require a full spool of line and you use mono, is to use a cork or plastic filler/arbor or use Dacron backing. I don't use the newer type braids but I suppose that would work as backing, too.         

Quite honestly, I could care less if someone wants to use my advise to their advantage, or not. If they don't it sure won't be any skin off my back or cost me any frustration or money.   

[jurelometer]

First off let me say that most people here are well aware that I know very little and could care less regarding conventional reels. Over 50 years ago I took a 5 gallon bucket full of level winds and dumped them in the middle of Woman Lake in north central MN. The few I now have left are hand-me-down heirlooms from my granddad and father. 

I also disagree (respectfully) with Tommy, but  not as strongly......... If he has concerns about nylon busting plastic spools it is worth listening to, even if the exact mechanism for failure might be debatable.

Knowing Tommy a little. I would guess that he probably doesn't mind you challenging him (respectfully) about not using mono, but he is probably not happy with the implication that he is a Californian

-J

It doesn't really bother me that much, Dave. Some Left Coast & Central Plains ideology may differ a little but I have an awful lot of CA friends and acquaintances that are really nice people, and overall, we all have a lot in common.   

It bothers me a bit.  I like that a bunch of folk from all over the world with all kinds of life experiences get along well here! 

Just trying to keep it light regarding the California stuff. I'd be honored to take you out for a tofu dog the next time you are out on the West coast

Most people that have extensively serviced, repaired and/or collected older/vintage open faced spinning reels over the years are well aware that monofilament line can play havoc on certain types of plastic and graphite spools. Some can with withstand the stress and some won't. The main problem is you never know which spool has been overly stressed or has had a little too much UV degradation until it breaks while in use under the stress & pressure. The main culprit is the expansion and contraction of the mono, especially a full spool of it. For those that live in climates that see hot and cold extremes the contraction is exacerbated when the person goes fishing in late fall and the mono soaks up a bunch of water. If he/she lives where it gets extremely cold and then stores their rod/reel in the garage or leaves it in their unconditioned boat over the winter the exposure to extreme freezing temperatures makes the mono contract even more. I've known a few people who have done this that went to use their outfit in the spring only to find the front flange of the spool had popped off with line unraveled out the front of the reel/spool. The best way to combat this problem is, if the fishing you do doesn't require a full spool of line and you use mono, is to use a cork or plastic filler/arbor or use Dacron backing. I don't use the newer type braids but I suppose that would work as backing, too. 

The way that nylon works is that it fairly quickly adjust to ambient humidity.  I 3D print the stuff, and you have to pre-dry it so that it is not spewing off steam as you melt it to lay down the layers of plastic. If you are doing a 3D print that takes several hours, the spool of nylon filament has to be to encased in a humidity controlled container so that it does not reabsorb moisture in the air to equalize with ambient humidity and screw up the print.

While I am 100% on board in terms of spools getting blown out by nylon line, I suspect that it is more a factor of time (and maybe temperature).  To much pressure for too long and kablooey. Nylon just equalizes to ambient humidity too fast, and I also don't see a way that getting wet actually causes the stretched nylon to store more energy than dry.

When you say "contraction", not sure whether you are referring to expansion or compression.

The problem is going to be expansion, and not compression  as mentioned in the recent threads on this topic. As the stretched nylon tries to return to its original length, the diameter is trying to expand.  This puts load on the spool walls, pushing them apart from each other.  Your photos of failed spools are consistent with this type of failure.  If the failure was based on compression, the arbor portion of the spool would have collapsed.


BTW, graphite reel parts are plastic too.  Nylon to be exact- Nylon filled with ground or chopped carbon fibers (up to 20%, I think) is marketed as "graphite".  The fibers make the nylon stiffer and more dimensionally accurate.  But instead of stretching under load like pure nylon, it is more prone to fracture.  No free lunch.  I also 3D print this stuff.  Pretty interesting material.
 
-J

 

[oc1]

When I was growing up, if you had a plastic spool and were lucky enough to catch a large fish, then you would wind the line off and back on after you got home.  Otherwise, you could have a popped spool by the next time you went fishing.  A pleasant ritual given the circumstances.

[Bill B]

The Penn 85 I saw blow up was used by me on a sunny 68* day for trolling on the Sacramento River. Overnight it dipped to frost level.  When we go into the boat in the morning to fish again the spool was toast.  The Jigmaster and J.A. Coxe were in for a service because the reel wouldn't crank.  Bill