Lever vs Star - mechanics wise

[coonhound]

I don't like the LD for bottom fishing.  I like to go freespool and know that the drag is still where I preset it.  Set it and forget it.

[Dominick]

I don't like the LD for bottom fishing.  I like to go freespool and know that the drag is still where I preset it.  Set it and forget it.

Coonhound, I am just curious about how you use a lever drag.  What makes you think that you cannot get to your preset pull?  Perhaps you are not using the LD correctly.  I do not mean to be condescending but I will explain to you about how to use a lever drag.  Assuming you want to set your lever drag at 20 lbs.  You would set the drag to 20 lbs. at strike by lifting weights or using a scale (however you usually do it).  Now when you thumb the lever back to free-spool you are in free-spool.  There is no resistance and your line will play out until you hit bottom or you work the lever.  Once you hit bottom you would move the lever to the detent at the strike position and you are at 20 lbs.  If you want more drag for some reason just depress the detent release at the lever and move it past strike to full.  These movements take you to full gradually.  Under most fishing conditions a lever drag is quicker than the star drag system.  You may not like LD for bottom fishing but it is quick and accurate and infinitely more adjustable than the star drag system.  Please don't get me wrong I like the star drag system also.  Everyone is entitled to his/her own preference.  Dominick

[Alto Mare]

Old man, let me tell you how to use the star. Hold the handle knob in the palm of your hand and with your thumb back the star all the way. Now with your index turn the points on the star twice...one at a time, stopping at the handle with the same finger that you're using each time, you are now at a quarter drags. Repeat two more times and you'll be at half, two more times at three quarters and two more times at full. if you get confused start with the thumb again and count If you're looking for accuracy, weight each step, I'll bet they will always be the same at that same spot . Not all drags are set the same, set yours to your liking.

Just messing with you, if I look as good as you do when I get your age I'll be in good shape. Don't get a big head, keep those hawaiian shirts buttoned up....please
Let me know exactly what day you're in town.
Sal

[Norcal Pescador]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned this already or else they knew I would put in my 2 cents.

A star drag has the braking action at the end of the line - pull on spool, through the pinion and main gear, then on the drag washers. The whole load must go through the gears so things can get dicey with poorly made gears or more drag than the gears can handle (as in brass).

Lever drag reels have the braking action on an extension of the spool axle. One of the main cautions on lever drags is don't turn the preset knob unless the drag lever is in the free position.

Look at my list of reels below and you'll see I'm with Sal, except I do have a lever drag reel and have just added 2 more 501's and a Newell 99 conversion to the stable.

[Mandelstam]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned this already or else they knew I would put in my 2 cents.

A star drag has the braking action at the end of the line - pull on spool, through the pinion and main gear, then on the drag washers. The whole load must go through the gears so things can get dicey with poorly made gears or more drag than the gears can handle (as in brass).

Lever drag reels have the braking action on an extension of the spool axle. One of the main cautions on lever drags is don't turn the preset knob unless the drag lever is in the free position.

Look at my list of reels below and you'll see I'm with Sal, except I do have a lever drag reel and have just added 2 more 501's and a Newell 99 conversion to the stable.

Nice input!

About not turning the preset knob unless the reel's in free spool, I've read that on many threads here but I don't really understand why not? What could happen?

I'm starting to lean back towards star drags again. Not that I didn't like them before but I'm starting to understand how nice and simple they are in comparison.

[UKChris]

Two reasons not to turn the preset without backing off the lever - first it usually won't turn to increase the preset (because the drag washers and springs are already under pressure) and second trying to do so may screw something up if you force them. Also, if you do manage to increase the preset, when you back off and then return the lever to the same position, you won't get the drag you expected 'cos everything was under pressure when you set it but has since had an opportunity to re-settle.

So, always take the pressure out of the system by taking the lever back to zero, twiddle the preset knob, move the lever to wherever you want it to be (strike, full or some tape mark) and check. If it is not right, back to zero, twiddle again, up with the lever again and recheck. Actually, very quick when you get used to it.

Having said that, there are some lever drag reels that do allow you to adjust the pre-set with the lever not in the freespool setting (eg Policansky) but only with relatively low drag settings. Wouldn't want to try it with a 130!

Cheers,
Chris

[redsetta]

G'day Mandelstam,
LDs generally have a cam above (ie outside) the lever.
When the lever is engaged, it pushes the cam away.
This pulls the spool shaft towards the right side plate and the spool onto the drag plate (which is locked against the pinion/pinion bearing).
The cam generally pushes against the preset adjuster as it does so.
If you turn the adjustor when the lever is engaged, you're using the spool shaft thread (and adjustor thread) to push against the drag load, potentially damaging both threads.
Hope that helps.
Cheers, Justin

[Mandelstam]

G'day Mandelstam,
LDs generally have a cam above (ie outside) the lever.
When the lever is engaged, it pushes the cam away.
This pulls the spool shaft towards the right side plate and the spool onto the drag plate (which is locked against the pinion/pinion bearing).
The cam generally pushes against the preset adjuster as it does so.
If you turn the adjustor when the lever is engaged, you're using the spool shaft thread (and adjustor thread) to push against the drag load, potentially damaging both threads.
Hope that helps.
Cheers, Justin

That helps alot! Thank you!

/K

[Norcal Pescador]

Bearings are often crushed too.

[johndtuttle]

needless to say this is an "old school" site where rugged simplicity is going to be appreciated. 
...

I sure love old school and simplicity! But, as I am an newbie in comparison to a lot of you guys here, please explain why a star drag is so much simpler and more rugged than a lever drag system? I've looked at a few service guides on lever drags but to me they don't look overly complicated.. What am I missing?

/Karl

At the risk of raising from the dead darn near every thread on this site I will address this as I didn't answer before and no one else did:

A lever drag reel is significantly more complicated than a star drag and I will try and explain.

First off, count the parts on a Star Drag schematic and then on a Lever Drag schematic. Even the simplest and cheapest of LD reels have 2-3 times as many parts and probably 5 times the number of parts of a Senator. The highest end LD reels have nearly 200 parts. The highest end Star Drags have less than 100. The basic idea is that an LD reel has to move the entire spool assembly via a precision cam to increase drag pressure, the SD reel simply some washers that get tightened by one nut (star). More parts means more to go wrong and more expense. Moving the entire spool assembly means more parts to accomplish that smoothly and support the forces under load.

In addition, the achilles heal of LD reels is the right side pinion bearing that is essentially treated as a "drag washer" in LD reels. And the more drag you have the more the RSPB gets crushed. This leads to rapid destruction of the bearing as they are not designed to handle this type of "axial" load. The more drag you use the faster it gets destroyed. This is apparently a "sacrificial lamb" that the manufacturers expect you to destroy despite their advertisements of drag settings that quickly destroy them. There is no such vital part that can be ruined on a few heavy fish in a SD. Take an LD reel and set the preset at strike to the lowest drag setting that increases handle turning pressure in any noticeable way. That setting on an Avet SX is about 8-9lbs. *Anything* higher than that (ie pushing a millimeter past strike) and you are inevitably destroying the RSPB even reeling in a bare hook.

Conversely, every bearing in an SD reel is only stressed in the way they are designed to be stressed and therefore last longer. You can preset the drag to whatever you want and are not wearing out anything as you fish the reel.

Add to that the position of  the drag in an LD reel is right inside that nice crevice between the spool and the frame leading to greater exposure of the drag and all those additional precision parts to saltwater. This means that you need to have a dedicated cover for the drag but all those additional parts needed for smooth movement of the spool back and forth are more exposed to saltwater. LD repairs can get expensive fast. An SD reel is not necessarily more protected, it's just that there are fewer parts at risk and they are cheaper parts (price the cost of a new drag plate for an LD reel that had it's plate get pitted from salt sometime), hence a more reliable system in an SD and vastly cheaper to maintain overall.

In a nutshell:

1. LD reels have more parts which equals more headaches. They are also, generally, more expensive parts.

2. An LD reel is designed to eat bearings and needs more bearings to function properly. The simplest star drags don't even have a single bearing and bushings virtually never, ever wear out.

3. The drag is far more complicated in an LD reel with more precision parts required with far more to go wrong but, they will always produce more drag due to the "multiplying" effects of the pinion on the main gear and drag stack in an SD reel that reduce it's effective drag. If the gear ratio is 4:1 then when 15lbs of force is taking line off of the spool the Star Drag stack actually has to resist 60. An LD reel doesn't experience this penalty.

So, I hope this makes sense and as much as I come across as an LD hater I'm not, particularly for true big 'uns. However, if you fish them hard an LD reel is gonna be finicky and require a lot of work whereas the simple old mechanism of washers and a star is gonna keep on fishing far longer.

It's kinda like if that one big fish came along I'd want an LD reel for all that they can do in a small package. Day in and day out the ruthless reliability of a SD reel is a joy, however. It's like comparing a Toyota truck to a Mercedes. One is gonna go 300 thousand miles with nary a peep, the other is gonna be very expensive to fix and routinely maintain though the bling on that one just may get you a date.

best

[Bunnlevel Sharker]

Hey I've picked up lots of girls that could do better than me in my 99 suburban  plus real chicks will dig the mud you just went through on the Toyota 

[MFB]

So the symptom is a high drag setting can cause bearing damage. The problems are

1. Cost, all manufactures build things to a price point & deep groove ball bearings are the most cost effective (bearings) to use for this application.

2. Design, design of the reel where a high drag setting causes a excessive axial load on the bearing. As a general rule of thumb a deep groove ball bearing can take (up to) 10% of it's radial load in axial load. For instance a 696 (6 x 15 x 5) has a static radial load of 530N roughly 53kg so will take a axial (side or thrust) load of only 5.3kg max.

Solutions

3. Alan's bearing spacer sleeves will help by supporting the inner ring of the bearing, preventing them from moving as much as they would without the sleeve.

4. Angular contact bearings are designed to take radial & axial loads, they have the same dimensions as deep groove bearings but may not be available in some of the smaller sizes (below 6mm bore). If you used these along with the correct bearing spacer sleeve you would extend your bearing life dramatically.

5. Needle roller thrust bearings, another alternative if you can't get the correct size angular contact bearing. Providing you can fit one in, you may need to remove a spacer washer or modify a housing to achieve this.

6. This is going to cause me some grief, BACK OFF THE DRAG use the rod to do the work a reel is not a winch, for lighter gear thumb the spool (works on spinners too).

Rgds

Mark         

[Ron Jones]

I LOVE number 6. The rod brings the fish in, the reel holds the line.
Ron

[johndtuttle]

The thing is Mark is that #6 has no effect on the Pinion Bearing. It will ease the strain on your gears and your arms, but not the Pinion Bearing.

The force is constant and is determined by the drag setting. If you have a drag setting that causes "handle turning pressure" it is destroying the bearing regardless of whether a fish is on the line or not. The life of the pinion bearing is going to be proportional to how often you use higher drag settings and turn the handle even if the settings are within the manufacturers specifications.

Using the Avet s/x as an example again, it is rated to 9lbs at strike and 14 at full. If you push it to full there is handle binding pressure from the pinion bearing being used in a way it is not ideally designed for. The Lever Drag reel makers, reasonably, have marketed a reel that is very inexpensive but is betting that the time spent at full is low enough for the average guy that their consumers will be happy with the life of the pinion for the money they spent.

We in the cheap seats simply point out that this is one reason a star drag will be more reliable for fishing 15lbs of drag year after year. The only thing wearing out when you set a star drag to 15lbs and forget it is a tiny amount of spring in the stainless belleville washers. The rate of that is so low as to not amount to much.

Some of the reel makers are doing more and more to alleviate this problem with the pinion bearings in LD reels but it remains one of cost and Angular Contact bearings are prohibitively expensive from a commercial marketing standpoint.

best

[MFB]

Hi John,

If the drag is below the setting that is below the maximum axial load for the bearings, that is you are using the rod to play the fish, or thumbing the spool I can't see a problem. All lever drag reels regardless of brand have this inherent design flaw, I'm not wading into the star versus lever debate (every system has their pros & cons). Just suggesting how you can improve performance & bearing life on a lever drag reel.

Rgds

Mark