DRAG STACK OPERATION?

[LTM]

Guys,

With all the drag modifications/mods going on around this forum, I need some clarity. I dont know if this question has been asked already and I apologize if Im beeing redundant in asking. Im still trying to wrap my head around understanding just specifically how (and why) the drag stack operates. For instance (correct me if Im wrong), with the "normal" configuration with alternating keyed to the shaft metal washer then eared metal washer (of coarse with carbon fiber washer sandwiched between), only one surface of the cf washer is actually being used. Then with the advent of advanced tinkering/engineering by our resident tinkeriers (Sal at the top of this list  ), we have been exposed to hexagon shaped main gear and hex shaped cf drag washers (not metal washers though) with all the metal washers keyed to the drag sleeve/gear shaft. Its my understanding that this metal washer config keyed to the "shaft" utilizes both sides of the cf drags, why??  I also understand that the normal drag config is smoother than the hex/keyed to the shaft config, why? Also, what is the benefit of the hex (or in some project by guys multiple ear's) on the cf washers? I dont understand the basic operation of the drag operation; so please dont say: think about it. IM LOST  . A detailed explaination is what I need at times to get the COMPLETE picture for a full understanding. If at all possible a video tutorial would be best, photos next best and diagrams will help also. I would like to ask the "drag pro's" to "think about this" before they post so that beginners and thick brained regulars as myself can understand how this process works. The only thing it would be safe to assume with me regarding this process is that the cf (or whatever material) drags are used as a friction surface kinda like brake shoes on an automobile, thats all that I know for sure, and that more cf washeres means more surface area for more friction. BTW, my next question for those interested in responding to will be: what does the shape of the pinion bearing have to do with how much load can be placed on a lever drag reel?

Thank you and your feedback is appreciated,

Leo

[Keta]

"Its my understanding that this metal washer config keyed to the "shaft" utilizes both sides of the cf drags, why??"  

The CF is sandwiched between the metal plates and is not held so it spins with one or the other metal washers.


"I also understand that the normal drag config is smoother than the hex/keyed to the shaft config, why? "

You misunderstood, they can be as smooth.


"Also, what is the benefit of the hex (or in some project by guys multiple ear's) on the CF washers?"

The ears lock the CF into the gear, the keyed washers are locked to the gear sleeve allowing both sides of the washers to "work"..

[Cone]

Leo, In the normal drag, the gear sleeve is kept from turning by the dogs. The gear turns. Inside the gear are the carbon fiber washers and eared washers that turn with it. The gear sleeve has round keyed washers that stay stationary when the gear turns. In the hex set. The eared washers are eliminated. The carbon fiber washers turn with the gear and there is a keyed washer that is stationary between all the hex washers. This means both sides of the cf washers create friction. Clear as mud.   Bob

[DaBigOno]

Thanks!   It all makes sense.  I need some hex gears!!

[LTM]

Still confused, lets use Dawns illustration. For the sake of simplicity lets use the 3 stack illustration (5 and above are just extension of this):



For the sake of understanding, lets define the normal (non-eared fiber washer) theory of operation first.

The dogs keep the gear/bridge sleeve stationary; however the main gear can still rotate, thus resistance/friction from the drag stack.

All of the non-eared fiber washers rotate inside of the main gear to apply friction via the friction surfaces which are the metal washers and the inside face of the main gear.

Therefore the metal washers provide a friction surface for the fiber washers and visa versa.

The metal washers that are keyed to the gear sleeve are held stationary by the gear sleeve which is held stationary by the dog(s) holding the gear sleeve.

The main gear is not keyed to the gear sleeve, therefore all fiber washers are free to rotate under pressure.

The eared metal washers therefore rotate with the main gear as the main gear is free to rotate. What purpose/difference does this serve in applying friction vs the non-eared metal washers that are stationary? This is probably the area that is confusing me.

Then, why isnt friction being applied to both sides of the fiber washer when its being sandwiched between two surfaces?

I'll stop her for the time being, maybe this will clear things up for the rest of my understanding. Thanx guys for responding so quickly.

Leo

[Makule]

It is my understanding that in the "conventional" drag disk arrangement, both sides of the CF disks are used.  One side is keyed to the main gear and the other side is keyed to the sleeve.  If both sides of the drag disks were not friction surfaces, there would be wear on only one side, but we know that the disks wear on both sides.

[Keta]

Makule, the CF washer floats and wears fairly evenly, sometime on the eared, sometimes on the keyed.

In a standard drag stack the CF washers float and can only create friction on one or the other metal washers.  To make it easier lets say the gear sleeve and keyed washers are stationary and the gear and eared washers move.

The gear turns and the first CF washer either turns with it or remains stationary with the gear sleeve/keyed washer (or a combination of both but that just adds to the confusion).  Only one surface is creating friction, add more CF and metal washers and you increase the total drag.

With a hex/octagon/eared CF washer the CF turns with the gear, the metal washers remain "stationary" with the gear sleeve causing friction on both sides of the CF washer.

[TomT]

I am sure I do not understand at all, but I have a question.   In a standard setup (without ears on the cf) what would happen if all washers were eared?  Seem like it should be similar to the eared cf and the non- eared washers?? 
TomT

[Keta]

I am sure I do not understand at all, but I have a question.   In a standard setup (without ears on the cf) what would happen if all washers were eared?  Seem like it should be similar to the eared cf and the non- eared washers?? 
TomT

The entire drag stack will rotate with the gear and you will get no drag. 

[LTM]

Did I miss it? Would someone restate what the the sleeved metal washer is doing different than the eared metal washer in relationship to the rotating gear and the fiber washers   For what Im getting from the dialogue is that the eared metal washer is only applying friction to one surface. I think Im getting more confused here. When you mix comments about conventional config with hybrid (eared fiber and keyed metal) washers, it leads to confusion with me for I dont understand the primary basics.

Leo

[Keta]

"Sleeved"=keyed? 

The keyed washer turns with the gear sleeve, the eared washer turns with the gear.  The CF washer float between the gear metal washers.

[LTM]

A possible glimmer of light. If all eared fiber washers were installed and pressure applied with the star I can see how the fiber drags would just rotate with the free rotating main gear. By having metal washers that are keyed to  the drag sleeve which is STATIC, THEN the friction is distributed to ALL the drag surfaces?

Leo

[Keta]

Yup!

[LTM]

Thanx for hanging in there with me on this one Lee  . I owe you a beer if I see you. Let's see if I really got it. Therefore when one does the hybrid eared fiber washer config, the use of keyed to sleeve metal washers which are STATIONAARY is the only way to apply friction to the eared fiber washers that are ROTATING with the gear?

Thanx

[Keta]

You got it now.