I'm a little lost here

Started by Legal Bill, January 17, 2014, 03:22:29 AM

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Shark Hunter

If you need any "beat nick" deciphering, I can help with that too! ;)
Just don't get overwhelmed Bill. Take it in in small doses, then you will be an addict like the rest of us! ;D
Here is my Tank Thread.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=7872.0
Life is Good!

johndtuttle

#16
Quote from: alantani on January 17, 2014, 04:50:04 PM
the stainless steel gear sleeves are most critical for the reels "in the middle." 

the squidders are so small and the drag settings are so light that a stainless steel gear sleeve is often not needed unless you are going to seriously lean hard on the reel.  then you walk a fine line, because if you exceed the capacities of a soft brass squidder gear sleeve using by using stainless, then the softer brass dogs and maganese/bronze allow main gears can quickly give out. 

the 113h, 114, 114h and 115 gear sleeves are also heavy enough that the brass gear sleeve should do the job.  as with the smaller reels, the large stainless steel gear sleeves will also allow you to go to such high pressures that you can damage the teeth on the main gears. 

where these stainless steel gear sleeves prove their worth is in the jigmaster 500's, the mariner 49's, and the plain black side plate 112 and 113 senators.  particularly the black side plate 113 senator, because it is the largest reel that uses the "jigmaster" gear sleeve.  naturally, it is this black side plate 113 senator that enjoys the singular distinction of having the lowest "power to weight" ratio of all the senators made. 
as with all reels, most of the damage you see in older reels is due to corrosion.  the second source of damage is to the drive train as a result of sticky drags.  so the first thing to always do with any reel is to get some grease on all the metal surfaces and then switch out the drags to greased carbon fiber.  that will eliminate 99% of the wear and tear you see in a reel. after that, everything else is bling.  the exception is the 113 senator, where i feel a stainless steel gear sleeve is an absolute necessity.  get all of this done first, then let's start talking about the gear sleeves, dogs, gears, handles, and frames. 

I'm going to quote this for emphasis and also expand on it just a little.

This is not to say that Alan does not know these facts (and more) as well as anyone but there is another that I will add to his list and that is "User Error".  And this is often from not understanding your reels limitations despite your best intentions to not abuse your pride and joy.

So, imho, the number one source of Senator failure: Users not understanding what their reel can and cannot do (ie fishing the reel above its designed capability, even after modifications) and not doing basic maintenance/prep. Alan probably doesn't mention "user error" simply because it is so obvious to him however at the risk of being pedantic in a stickied thread I will post it  :D.

And the reason I am posting this is that in your OP you said "I want to believe I can mod my 113s and 115s to be stronger, tougher and better than a lot of modern big game reels..." and I think a word of caution is needed. You can make your reel vastly better on the cheap and with your own hands and make something that is more truly "your own" than a store bought model. But don't sell short the engineering marvels created from decades of experience and real engineering training that some of the better reels out there represent. Understanding how they work and why they cast better/make more smooth drag etc will be a good education I think you will find.

It's all about drag surface area and keeping it all rigidly aligned under load. When things twist forces get concentrated and wear/failure occurs on any number of parts. All of the mods are ways of increasing drag surface, increasing rigidity/improving alignment under load or providing backup for failure and/or to prevent it with stronger and more expensive materials than stock.

You can (and I hope you do) modify your own reels to be far better than they were originally. It is great fun and having reels that operate smoothly with a nice fish on is their own reward...in addition to learning about and understanding your tools and their limitations.

And you hopefully you will find a fish that has no regard for any of it! :D

best regards

Chris Gatorfan

Nice addition to the post John. And you are soooooo right on user error. Even the best of us can make user error at any moment in time. But User error is not necessarily a bad thing. IMHO it it a basis for us all to learn from whether it is your first time picking up a reel and screwdriver, or your Alan Tani himself. We never stop learning, and the best ways to do that is through asking questions, experimenting, and learning from your experiences. And always remember there is no such thing as a "DUMB QUESTION."
Wilson's Reel Upgrades.

Legal Bill

Thanks John D Tuttle.  Good words of caution.  Where I off-shore fish, 25s and 30s are the most common big game reel.  Yellowfin are common, but usually under 100#.  There are lot of long fin as well as wahoo, mahi and the occasional white and blue marlin.  Every now and then, someone will hook a big eye.  Many people go sharking, but I'm not into that at all.  I troll with my 9/0s and a pair of Shimano TLD 50s.  I think they 50s are a bit too big for a lot of work I do.  I worry about the 9/0s having too much flex, so wanted to beef them up.  I was hoping the 113s could be upgraded to handle the work of 20 or 25s.

erikpowell

Quote from: johndtuttle on January 17, 2014, 06:27:16 PM

It's all about drag surface area and keeping it all rigidly aligned under load. When things twist forces get concentrated and wear/failure occurs on any number of parts. All of the mods are ways of increasing drag surface, increasing rigidity/improving alignment under load or providing backup for failure and/or to prevent it with stronger and more expensive materials than stock.


Boom!  Well defined John  ;)

BMITCH

Quote from: Legal Bill on January 18, 2014, 03:16:35 AM
Thanks John D Tuttle.  Good words of caution.  Where I off-shore fish, 25s and 30s are the most common big game reel.  Yellowfin are common, but usually under 100#.  There are lot of long fin as well as wahoo, mahi and the occasional white and blue marlin.  Every now and then, someone will hook a big eye.  Many people go sharking, but I'm not into that at all.  I troll with my 9/0s and a pair of Shimano TLD 50s.  I think they 50s are a bit too big for a lot of work I do.  I worry about the 9/0s having too much flex, so wanted to beef them up.  I was hoping the 113s could be upgraded to handle the work of 20 or 25s.

I've fished 25's quite a bit and they are EXCELLENT reels but......there is nothing like catching a decent fish on equipment that you have built/mod'ed on your own. Something about that whole mind set. The 113h's with either the 1+7 drag kit or the BP hex gears is IMO as good if not better then the 25. My suggestion would be to get a set of the BP SS gears(standard) and the 1+7 drag config. And fish it. With the standard gear set it takes a lot of work outta the equation by not having to "custom" cut your own cf's. Just my two cents worth. BTW the tiburon/accurate frames are a MUST if you are going to button down this reel. Just way toooooo much flex.
luck is the residue of design.

Legal Bill

I have the HSPs with the full graphite frame.  How well do those hold up without a frame upgrade?  They looks like this, but were made in the USA.  I bought them new over 10 years ago.

http://www.pennfishingstore.com/penn-special-senator-h2-reels.html

surfcaster

(disclaimer) I am not an expert by any means , I have several 113h reels older & newer styles
& they have  held up well over the years. we fished The U.S. graphite frame one for 8 years now
It has held its own. easy to maintain & It is still working like new.

BMITCH

Again this all comes down to how and how much? How are you going to use it and how much are you willing to spend. For me working on the upgrades and mods is almost as fun as fishing the reels. Notice I said almost! If the money is a factor then the graph. Frames are good. It's just when you start to upgrade to SS gears, maxed out cf washers etc....then torque becomes an issue. If your looking to get 25# + drag outta the 113H with all the goodies then I strongly recommend a Tib/accurate type frame. If you are not going to "tax" the reel with those higher drag settings then basically stock items are the way to go. Point being, your only limited by your budget and imagination. These upgrade are all about fun and experimenting.hope this helps.
Bob
luck is the residue of design.

Keta

#24
Quote from: Legal Bill on January 18, 2014, 02:04:54 PM
I have the HSPs with the full graphite frame.  How well do those hold up without a frame upgrade?  

Not so well, this was a 50 fished at 28lbs of drag.

Hi, my name is Lee and I have a fishing gear problem.

I have all of the answers, yup, no, maybe.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

BMITCH

luck is the residue of design.

surfcaster

Either failed the bucket of bricks test,hung up on bottom pretty good,or the one that got away.  Aluminum billet is stronger,
but  most  add  because It looks cooler,like chrome on a bike.
 

Chris Gatorfan

Looks like someone or should i say something had a nice headache the next morning...
Wilson's Reel Upgrades.

Keta

Quote from: surfcaster on January 18, 2014, 04:20:01 PM
Either failed the bucket of bricks test,hung up on bottom pretty good,or the one that got away.  Aluminum billet is stronger,
but  most  add  because It looks cooler,like chrome on a bike.
 

Cow YFT.
Hi, my name is Lee and I have a fishing gear problem.

I have all of the answers, yup, no, maybe.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

johndtuttle

#29
Quote from: Legal Bill on January 18, 2014, 02:04:54 PM
I have the HSPs with the full graphite frame.  How well do those hold up without a frame upgrade?  They looks like this, but were made in the USA.  I bought them new over 10 years ago.

http://www.pennfishingstore.com/penn-special-senator-h2-reels.html

This is what you do (carefully): Get a scale and preset your 113h to about 12-15lbs of drag. You'll be surprised how much it is when you try and lift that weight on the end of a rod. Then put your hand on the reel and bounce the weight a tiny bit. You will feel the frame flex like it's just about ready to blow any second.  This is especially easy to do with a harness on as you can easily lift while having your hands free to feel.

Then (again, ideally in a harness) try cranking the handle while feeling the frame. It will clearly and obviously torque and twist and every time it does imagine the alignment of a tooth on the gear and how you are stressing it as compared to it being flat and stable.

This is the "user error" that I am talking about and you see all the time. That is, people cranking as hard as they can against a stubborn fish while their reel frame flexes and twists. Or alternatively the fish takes a run and the drag chatters and starts and stops because the guy never prepped his reel and salt water has soaked into his drag causing peaks and valleys in drag performance. That starting and stopping and jerks are beating everything up.

Anyways, as above, the basic prep and SS gear sleeve make a ~$100 reel (which really is incredibly cheap) much better. But imho, if you are going to routinely fish the reel around 12-15lbs and use a power handle then you really need the solid frame to keep it all aligned. You will be amazed how much it increases cranking power at higher loads by limiting binding from frame twist.

best