Hi everyone. I'm not sure if this was discussed before. But I'm just wondering what are those 2 holes on the gears for. Is it for lightweight purposes? Or it's kinda indications on where the gears should be during installation? Bcz I tried open up my branzino. It was smooth before I open up. Now it's not Soo smooth as it is before 😅. It's like the pinion and the gears rubbing together thight. Not sure if the gear holes needs to be on some orientation or there's some torque value I should take note off during the sideplate Installation. Hehe. V much appreciated if I could get some help here. 😊 Thanks guys!
I have never seen a "timed" gearset in a Daiwa reel, only Shimano (and possibly Penn or Pfleuger IIRC). Additionally, if those matched setups are out of synch they will lock solid in less than a 1/4 of a rotation.
Most spinners feel "different" after service, and sometimes I wonder if it is all in my mind. The bearing looks like it is a mag bearing, is it still smooth after cleaning? Magoil is ferric material (a lot like rust!) in oil suspension and if you wash out the oil/surfactant you just leave clumps of magnetite inside; they need aggressive cleaning, or more magoil added to mix it down! Other than that I can only think of moving shims around or adding/removing them to suit.
cheers
Steve
Hi Steve, thanks for the heads up. I'll take note for the bearing n shims part. As for the 2 holes on the gear, what is it for actually? And is there any tips during installation?
From time to time there is reel repair advice about indexing gears for reassembly, but it should not be necessary unless the designer really sucked.
If the numbers of teeth on a pair of gears are mutually prime (they have no common factors other than 1), then every tooth on the first gear will contact every tooth on the second gear an equal number of times. This is called "hunting", and there is no uneven wear on specific combinations of teeth. With a hunting gear ratio, there is no benefit in indexing the gear pairs for reassembly.
It is generally considered poor design to have non-hunting gear ratios, and I would be surprised to find it on any halfway decent reel. I haven't seen a reel with this ever, but I wouldn't put it past some oddball spinner.
For example: 11 tooth pinion and 33 tooth main has a common factor of 11 (bad). But 10 and 41 are mutually prime (good).
The hunting gear design is why reels are listed with those oddball gear ratios, like 2.82:1. The designer is letting you know that he is not a fool. But some fool in product marketing might still round that up to 3:1 on the product description :)
-J
If it was for weight reduction I would expect to see more holes. I suspect the oscillation gear is slightly oval to vary the speed of oscillation through the stroke, and you have slightly misaligned it - the oscillation geartrain in such a design is, for obvious reasons, non-hunting. Hopefully this hasn't caused permanent damage to the gearing.
Alternate idea: the gear is 2 different types of metal bonded together. Maybe those are points where they hold it still while joining the two?
I have old saltist 4500H gears. They have... More holes. I had considered that maybe they can line up with the screw that holds the oscillation block to aid with disassembly?
Hare brained ideas as usual.
Quote from: boon on June 20, 2023, 11:35:13 PMIf it was for weight reduction I would expect to see more holes. I suspect the oscillation gear is slightly oval to vary the speed of oscillation through the stroke, and you have slightly misaligned it - the oscillation geartrain in such a design is, for obvious reasons, non-hunting. Hopefully this hasn't caused permanent damage to the gearing.
Interesting. Do you think the holes in the main might be there for indexing to the big oscillation gear?
Quote from: jurelometer on June 21, 2023, 02:04:55 AMQuote from: boon on June 20, 2023, 11:35:13 PMIf it was for weight reduction I would expect to see more holes. I suspect the oscillation gear is slightly oval to vary the speed of oscillation through the stroke, and you have slightly misaligned it - the oscillation geartrain in such a design is, for obvious reasons, non-hunting. Hopefully this hasn't caused permanent damage to the gearing.
Interesting. Do you think the holes in the main might be there for indexing to the big oscillation gear?
Yes, either as indexing directly, or to provide visibility of a "timing mark" on the big oscillation gear.
Just a suspicion. It makes sense with the symptoms.
Quote from: boon on June 21, 2023, 02:28:40 AMQuote from: jurelometer on June 21, 2023, 02:04:55 AMQuote from: boon on June 20, 2023, 11:35:13 PMIf it was for weight reduction I would expect to see more holes. I suspect the oscillation gear is slightly oval to vary the speed of oscillation through the stroke, and you have slightly misaligned it - the oscillation geartrain in such a design is, for obvious reasons, non-hunting. Hopefully this hasn't caused permanent damage to the gearing.
Interesting. Do you think the holes in the main might be there for indexing to the big oscillation gear?
Yes, either as indexing directly, or to provide visibility of a "timing mark" on the big oscillation gear.
Just a suspicion. It makes sense with the symptoms.
Interesting... I guess next time I'll put a mark on the pinion and the gears alignment.
Quote from: Fav on June 22, 2023, 11:21:00 PMQuote from: boon on June 21, 2023, 02:28:40 AMQuote from: jurelometer on June 21, 2023, 02:04:55 AMQuote from: boon on June 20, 2023, 11:35:13 PMIf it was for weight reduction I would expect to see more holes. I suspect the oscillation gear is slightly oval to vary the speed of oscillation through the stroke, and you have slightly misaligned it - the oscillation geartrain in such a design is, for obvious reasons, non-hunting. Hopefully this hasn't caused permanent damage to the gearing.
Interesting. Do you think the holes in the main might be there for indexing to the big oscillation gear?
Yes, either as indexing directly, or to provide visibility of a "timing mark" on the big oscillation gear.
Just a suspicion. It makes sense with the symptoms.
Interesting... I guess next time I'll put a mark on the pinion and the gears alignment.
It is not the main gear and pinion that potentially need to be indexed, it is the two oscillation gears. Most likely, one of the oscillation gears is keyed into the the main gear shaft, and we are guessing that the holes in the pinion line up to some sort of mark in the other oscillation gear. Since the oscillation motion is reciprocating, there could be two spots where the alignment occur (and either would work), and therefore two holes on the pinion for indexing.
-J
maybe same gear is used in a baitrunner(bite-n-run?)
that's where the posts would be on the back, to trip lever by cranking
is that a bronze main?
Only reels I know of where alignment is critical are the Okuma's with "elliptical" gearing. I would guess shimming is the issue here, it can make a huge difference in smoothing.
One more thought on potential causes of the original problem. If the reel just feels a bit stiffer, but is not rougher or "catching", it might simply be caused by lubrication from maintenance. Spinners have a decent amount of mass (spool and rotor) that has to stay in motion while you are winding. When there is not much resistance in the machinery, once the winding started, momentum makes continuous winding less effort.
If you used more and/or thicker grease than originally present, it can weaken some of the momentum, requiring more effort to wind.
Quote from: nelz on June 23, 2023, 03:10:58 PMOnly reels I know of where alignment is critical are the Okuma's with "elliptical" gearing. I would guess shimming is the issue here, it can make a huge difference in smoothing.
Good point on the oscillation gearing.
This still leaves a question on the purpose of the holes. If not for assembly alignment, then Jason may be right about a manufacturing artifact. I was not sold on that idea, but then remembered that Daiwa "Digigear" process, where they cast or forge the gear, and the clean up the teeth with a CNC machine. The holes could be for indexing and clamping for that second stage of cutting on the main gear teeth after forging. It would require exactly two holes, and would be the method that I would prefer if I was in charge off the CNC process.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on June 23, 2023, 06:13:18 PMOne more thought on potential causes of the original problem. If the reel just feels a bit stiffer, but is not rougher or "catching", it might simply be caused by lubrication from maintenance. Spinners have a decent amount of mass (spool and rotor) that has to stay in motion while you are winding. When there is not much resistance in the machinery, once the winding started, momentum makes continuous winding less effort.
If you used more and/or thicker grease than originally present, it can weaken some of the momentum, requiring more effort to wind.
Quote from: nelz on June 23, 2023, 03:10:58 PMOnly reels I know of where alignment is critical are the Okuma's with "elliptical" gearing. I would guess shimming is the issue here, it can make a huge difference in smoothing.
Good point on the oscillation gearing.
This still leaves a question on the purpose of the holes. If not for assembly alignment, then Jason may be right about a manufacturing artifact. I was not sold on that idea, but then remembered that Daiwa "Digigear" process, where they cast or forge the gear, and the clean up the teeth with a CNC machine. The holes could be for indexing and clamping for that second stage of cutting on the main gear teeth after forging. It would require exactly two holes, and would be the method that I would prefer if I was in charge off the CNC process.
-J
That's a reasonable hypothesis, I always thought it was just a machining step but could not come up with a valid theory!
Those are just fixture holes, they're there to hold the gear during manufacturing.
The gears are investment cast, and will have some kind of index to make sure they are held in exactly the correct position while those two holes are drilled. The gear blank will then be fitted into a swiss machine, two pins will fit into the holes and the gear is *probably* gripped by those two pins. That would allow the gear to be reamed for the center shaft or the center shaft drilled through or drilled and threaded, the gear faced and OD turned, the gear teeth cut, and then the gear would be transferred to a subspindle and the backside faced off.
(I used to design these processes before I became a teacher)
Every modern spinner has several points where shims are critical.
You can replace them as you found them but the last critical piece of the puzzle is the tightness of everything associated during reassembly.
If you tighten down the rotor more than original that can move the pinion forward just enough to feel rougher than before. Same with too loose, the pinion can have more play the other way. On some reels the tightness of the side plate screws can change the tolerances. The reel should have 1mm of play side to side with the handle and the same forward to back with the pinion.
Change the tightness of things and it can be very difficult to recover the original smooth feel. Spin the reel too much when its a touch too tight and rough and you get roughness forever more.
I mark the rotor so I don't overtighten it as well as the main gear to pinion relationship.
But sometimes replacing the pinion and main with new ones and doing a new original shim job is the only cure. When you take a look at how much one shim changes the tolerance (a fraction of a millimeter) then the scope and sensitivity of the issue should be apparent.... :-\
Comparatively, a spinner just cannot be serviced as frequently as a conventional reel due to these shimming issues in my experience without replacing the main and pinion. Shimano famously hands them out like candy when Stellas are sent in for their gold service or whatever they call it now (if they even do it still). It was a significant selling issue for Stellas as compared to Daiwa's very expensive service.
I have similar problem but dont want to hijack the thread.
check here please
https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,37460.0.html