So this is probably :( the 5th time I've used the reel. Got ahold of a big grouper. The drag was all the down but bit excessively tightened. All of the sudden the line just started stripping off, no more reeling, and it sounded like a coffee grinder. Lost the fish. When I took it apart the piece on the end of the spool inside of the bearing was all chewed up. What. Caused this and how can I prevent it? I am assuming this is the issue. Everything else seems to be ok
Broken pinion gear, I guess you found the weak link. How heavy of line were you using?
Looks like a damaged pinion gear. Can you share a handle side picture? There have been many problems fishing these reels with a locked down drag. >:( I see it all the time. :o
This is the problem with big drag from star drag reels. The drag is inside the main gear but the spool acts on the pinion gear, so the drag force has to be transmitted through the gear teeth.
Any grouper over 20lbs will take some luck and skill to bring up. My friend said he was shocked that any grouper over 10lbs can pull drag from his locked down Penn 113n reel. The biggest problem is the dogs getting the tips broken and sometimes only one dog is working correctly because of the dog springs. Big fish will pull drag at will and require boat maneuvering/thumb pressure to keep them out of the structure.
wow, never saw this kind of damage on this reel eventho I have a friend that was using a Baja Special reel (same than US Senator) as loaner reel for his charter boat which normally fish for Yellotail and grouper here in Baja, Mx.
so, when you said a BIG grouper, how big you think it was and how heavy was your line?
normally the weak link on these reels are the stock dogs and the posts that support the dogs :-\
Quote from: steelfish on October 17, 2023, 03:48:40 PMwow, never saw this kind of damage on this reel eventho I have a friend that was using a Baja Special reel (same than US Senator) as loaner reel for his charter boat which normally fish for Yellotail and grouper here in Baja, Mx.
so, when you said a BIG grouper, how big you think it was and how heavy was your line?
normally the weak link on these reels are the stock dogs and the posts that support the dogs :-\
I agree with Alex, the most common failure are the dogs and posts. The original dogs and posts were dis-similar metals, dogs brass and ratchet stainless steel (if memory serves correctly). Mysticparts.com has updated parts to deal with those issues. Also the dog posts are prone to twisting out of the dog plate under extreme drag pressure. Cortez Conversations makes a bridge that addresses those issues.
But as you can see the spool and pinion need attention also. You might get lucky and be able to file the spool down and make it serviceable again.
FYI, and I apologize if you already know, there is a very small bearing inside of the spool post you are showing. Lose that and the reel will not work properly. Ask me how I know 😡. Key #55, Part #55-910.
Attached is a photograph of a 40 lb + grouper caught on the SOA with updated dogs, ratchet, and new Penn OEM bridge plate. (oh yeah new spool post bearing too 😉) I was using 15# of drag and 50# flourocarbon to haul it out of the rocks.
The Baja Special is a very capable reel in stock form, add the CC custom bridge and you have a bulletproof reel.
If you check the other parts let us know how they look. Bill
I think that this board is for asking the folks at Penn questions, so not sure if this thread belongs here:
But since we are rolling, here are some thoughts (I will try to be diplomatic :) ):
1. The pinion did not seat all the way down it to the spool slot when you put the reel into gear. The wear marks seem to support this. All star drag reels are vulnerable when thrown into gear from freespool on a big fish with a head of steam when the drag is buttoned down. The drag-locked, non-turning pinion has to be thrust into a receiver slot on a rapidly spinning spool.
This particular model has a separate shaft for the pinion and has a beefier pinion to spool junction, but it looks to my eye to be a bit trickier to get to seat all the way down if the spool is rapidly spinning. These appear to be intentional design tradeoffs, but a change from the classic 113H that tends to be fairly reliable in this situation.
If the the eccentric and yoke are OK, there is not much you can do to address this other than to start with a lighter drag setting if you are going to throw the reel into gear on a hard charging fish. You can turn up the drag after the the spool is engaged.
2. While the problem as described doesn't seem to match an anti-reverse failure, the anti-reverse system is usually the first thing that fails under very high load on these reels as several folk have mentioned. The issue is in the design, so there needs to be a design change to fix it. Penn does not have an upgrade, but there is an aftermarket full bridge kit from Cortez Conversions. You might want to take a look at the dogs, dog posts and ratchet for signs of deformation or scarring.
QuoteAny grouper over 20lbs will take some luck and skill to bring up. My friend said he was shocked that any grouper over 10lbs can pull drag from his locked down Penn 113n reel. The biggest problem is the dogs getting the tips broken and sometimes only one dog is working correctly because of the dog springs. Big fish will pull drag at will and require boat maneuvering/thumb pressure to keep them out of the structure.
Probably not locked down. Might want to check the drag setting with a scale. The classic 113H won't have a problem completely stopping these smaller groupers (I just watched a 25lber stopped in its tracks with a beat up old 113H yesterday). I don't fish a 113HN, but would be surprised if it is not in the same ballpark.
If you are having the dog problems with the 113HN, you might want to look into the aftermarket kit mentioned above.
-J
Maybe switch to a lever drag so you don't have to go from freespool to full with nothing in between!
I am not familiar with the 113n ... So I will ask , the bearing mounted on the spool does not look like it is fully seated . Does this bearing also has to seat in to the bridge plate ? Is the left side bearing adjusted right , possible the spool was not pushed to the right enough to stay engaged to the pinion ? Possible jack -yoke hang up that the pinion did not fully engage ?
Quote from: oldmanjoe on October 18, 2023, 12:49:49 AMI am not familiar with the 113n ... So I will ask , the bearing mounted on the spool does not look like it is fully seated . Does this bearing also has to seat in to the bridge plate ?
the floating spool on the Baja Special reel is kind of complicated design, what you see there is the spool with a pretty short shaft which has a hole for micro bearing inside and also a bigger bearing outside of that "shaft" which connects with the pinion, inside of the spool "shaft" and the pinion there is a disconnecting "pinion sub-shaft" so, when you put the reel in free spool on the right side of the spool it rides only with those two bearings, the big one sits on the bridge and the micro one spins with the pinion subshaft, as I said, a complicated design which was used also on the now discontinued penn Torque star drag
Quote from: oldmanjoe on October 18, 2023, 12:49:49 AMIs the left side bearing adjusted right , possible the spool was not pushed to the right enough to stay engaged to the pinion ? Possible jack -yoke hang up that the pinion did not fully engage ?
Quote from: Ak1200 on October 17, 2023, 02:06:03 AMAll of the sudden the line just started stripping off, no more reeling, and it sounded like a coffee grinder. Lost the fish.
those two comments remained me a problem I saw with a Baja Special reel some years ago, the reel also was giving line out on a big fish with those ugly sounds as a coffee gringer and the leftside plate bearing was adjusted correctly but the problem in my case (my friend's reel) was the Yoke was the culprit, check this thread
https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,15217.0.html
the good thing on my friends reel was I didnt see any damage on the spool or pinion, so I just installed a brand new yoke and the reel continued working as new.
maybe is the same case on this reel of OP
Thanks Alex I just took a crash course from Allen`s tutorial . https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,14.0.html
I see what you are talking about 13a stub shaft now and the little bearing and big bearing .
Stole some pictures .
On a star drag like this —- that damage is generally caused by the spool not being fully seated in the pinion at the initial strike zone.
That, and the drag being a little tight instead of looser with the clicker on.
If I can slow down the spool somewhat on a fast and hard running fish with my gloved hand —- then I have a better chance of no damage when I slam it in gear. And a looser —- but well adjusted drag stack will always help. Sort of like listening to the engine and transmission when shifting gears in a vehicle with a clutch.
This is a poster-child for Lever-Drags on large fish.
Best, Fred
I never own a 113n but I fish my friend's before when we hunted for amberjack and other fish. It is a good reel but I noticed a difference between the penn oem and Tom's Cortez Conversions. I never locked down my drag on a reel. It always can lead to reel failure and a lost fish. Drag force tends to increase with increased reel heat by simple expansion of the related drag parts. The expanding parts have nowhere to go and therefore exert greater forces on another part of the reel.
My friend eventually bought Tom's Cortez Conversions 113hn/US 113 bridge that addresses those issues. He has compliments for Tom and all the great contributions by others here.
Quote from: Surfrat on October 18, 2023, 08:42:38 AMI never own a 113n but I fish my friend's before when we hunted for amberjack and other fish. It is a good reel but I noticed a difference between the penn oem and Tom's Cortez Conversions. I never locked down my drag on a reel. It always can lead to reel failure and a lost fish. Drag force tends to increase with increased reel heat by simple expansion of the related drag parts. The expanding parts have nowhere to go and therefore exert greater forces on another part of the reel.
My friend eventually bought Tom's Cortez Conversions 113hn/US 113 bridge that addresses those issues. He has compliments for Tom and all the great contributions by others here.
Yeah, those factory "floating double dogs" were an issue.
As were the posts that were not up to the stresses —- and would tear out of the bridge plate.
Tom's aftermarket drop-in assembly makes this one of the most capable reels in the world. Both for the Baja & the US Senator.
Best, Fred
Best
Thanks for all the replies (my apologies if I posted this question to the wrong forum). After reading everyones theories I rechecked everything and I think somehow the left side bearing adjustment must have either not been tightened properly after servicing or i accidentally loosened it. Either way I think this led to the rounding of the spool slot. I feel like an idiot and unfortunately I learned an expensive lesson.
How bad does the pinion look ? I would try some needle file work , nothing to loose ..
Yeah isn't it just a pinion gear to replace?
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on October 19, 2023, 12:40:38 AMYeah isn't it just a pinion gear to replace?
what is probably ruined (not 100% positive) is the spool slot which connects to the pinion gear, check the OP pictures.
before looking to replace the spool (which is kind of expensive) I would try to file the spool slot damage and try it out again with the left bearing correctly adjusted.
Yes I will absolutely try that first
Quote from: MarkT on October 18, 2023, 12:01:07 AMMaybe switch to a lever drag so you don't have to go from freespool to full with nothing in between!
I'm not an experienced grouper angler (unless you count the misnamed black seabass here in the NE), but I think you generally want the drag locked down at hookup to horse the fish out of its rocks/reefs/wrecks/holes where it will break you off easily. The first phase of the fight is won when the fish is in free water away from structure, at which point you can ease off the drag to give you a greater margin of error and in order to tire the fish out and land it.
Quote from: foakes on October 18, 2023, 04:16:30 PMQuote from: Surfrat on October 18, 2023, 08:42:38 AMI never own a 113n but I fish my friend's before when we hunted for amberjack and other fish. It is a good reel but I noticed a difference between the penn oem and Tom's Cortez Conversions. I never locked down my drag on a reel. It always can lead to reel failure and a lost fish. Drag force tends to increase with increased reel heat by simple expansion of the related drag parts. The expanding parts have nowhere to go and therefore exert greater forces on another part of the reel.
My friend eventually bought Tom's Cortez Conversions 113hn/US 113 bridge that addresses those issues. He has compliments for Tom and all the great contributions by others here.
Yeah, those factory "floating double dogs" were an issue.
As were the posts that were not up to the stresses —- and would tear out of the bridge plate.
Tom's aftermarket drop-in assembly makes this one of the most capable reels in the world. Both for the Baja & the US Senator.
Best, Fred
Pretty sure his name is Tom, not Ted. ;D
Before you reassemble and call this reel good, take a look at the dogs and posts. The bridge you show in the pics is one of Penn's first generation bridges that goes back to the 113HN Baja Special days. You can see how minimally peened the dog posts are. These were the first ones to start to bow out with pressure. If they are even a little bowed, it puts uneven pressure on the cast dogs and they start to chip and break down. Even if you don't go with one of my upgraded bridges, IMHO it would be in your best interest to order a new bridge from Mystic. The new bridges have a much heavier peen on the dog posts.
Quote from: Squidder Bidder on October 19, 2023, 05:12:53 PMQuote from: MarkT on October 18, 2023, 12:01:07 AMMaybe switch to a lever drag so you don't have to go from freespool to full with nothing in between!
I'm not an experienced grouper angler (unless you count the misnamed black seabass here in the NE), but I think you generally want the drag locked down at hookup to horse the fish out of its rocks/reefs/wrecks/holes where it will break you off easily. The first phase of the fight is won when the fish is in free water away from structure, at which point you can ease off the drag to give you a greater margin of error and in order to tire the fish out and land it.
Both work fine for me. The lever goes from free spool to "full" drag nearly as fast, and is less likely to break something when engaging at higher settings. I prefer a star drag for jigging, as it is less work to go in and our of freespool. Levers are nice for live baiting with a circle hook as there is no sudden jerk that can pull the bait (and hook) free. When fishing for larger units, I prefer a two speed lever drag. A low gear ratio in that first phase is a big benefit.
There seems to be a belief among some vertical jiggers that a lever drag is a more premium reel, but if you are fishing under 20 lbs of drag, there are plenty of star drag reels out there that are up to the task. And plenty of lever drags that are not.
-J
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on October 19, 2023, 06:21:40 PMQuote from: foakes on October 18, 2023, 04:16:30 PMQuote from: Surfrat on October 18, 2023, 08:42:38 AMI never own a 113n but I fish my friend's before when we hunted for amberjack and other fish. It is a good reel but I noticed a difference between the penn oem and Tom's Cortez Conversions. I never locked down my drag on a reel. It always can lead to reel failure and a lost fish. Drag force tends to increase with increased reel heat by simple expansion of the related drag parts. The expanding parts have nowhere to go and therefore exert greater forces on another part of the reel.
My friend eventually bought Tom's Cortez Conversions 113hn/US 113 bridge that addresses those issues. He has compliments for Tom and all the great contributions by others here.
Yeah, those factory "floating double dogs" were an issue.
As were the posts that were not up to the stresses —- and would tear out of the bridge plate.
Tom's aftermarket drop-in assembly makes this one of the most capable reels in the world. Both for the Baja & the US Senator.
Best, Fred
Pretty sure his name is Tom, not Ted. ;D
Before you reassemble and call this reel good, take a look at the dogs and posts. The bridge you show in the pics is one of Penn's first generation bridges that goes back to the 113HN Baja Special days. You can see how minimally peened the dog posts are. These were the first ones to start to bow out with pressure. If they are even a little bowed, it puts uneven pressure on the cast dogs and they start to chip and break down. Even if you don't go with one of my upgraded bridges, IMHO it would be in your best interest to order a new bridge from Mystic. The new bridges have a much heavier peen on the dog posts.
Just to be clear , AK did not post a picture of his bridge . That picture I stole from Allen`s post .
Just trying to avoid any confusion !!!
Quote from: jurelometer on October 19, 2023, 06:59:30 PMQuote from: Squidder Bidder on October 19, 2023, 05:12:53 PMQuote from: MarkT on October 18, 2023, 12:01:07 AMMaybe switch to a lever drag so you don't have to go from freespool to full with nothing in between!
I'm not an experienced grouper angler (unless you count the misnamed black seabass here in the NE), but I think you generally want the drag locked down at hookup to horse the fish out of its rocks/reefs/wrecks/holes where it will break you off easily. The first phase of the fight is won when the fish is in free water away from structure, at which point you can ease off the drag to give you a greater margin of error and in order to tire the fish out and land it.
Both work fine for me. The lever goes from free spool to "full" drag nearly as fast, and is less likely to break something when engaging at higher settings. I prefer a star drag for jigging, as it is less work to go in and our of freespool. Levers are nice for live baiting with a circle hook as there is no sudden jerk that can pull the bait (and hook) free. When fishing for larger units, I prefer a two speed lever drag. A low gear ratio in that first phase is a big benefit.
There seems to be a belief among some vertical jiggers that a lever drag is a more premium reel, but if you are fishing under 20 lbs of drag, there are plenty of star drag reels out there that are up to the task. And plenty of lever drags that are not.
-J
These are all good points - particularly how much more robust lever drags are with higher drags.
My comment was more geared to the aspect of the preceding comment which asked "why can't you use a more gradual drag adjustment like with a lever drag?" The answer is, as you state, that you can - but in that case you would tighten the drag all the way down anyway at hookup. I use a small lever drag when Tautog fishing over structure - but I make sure to sunset the drag lever when the rig hits bottom. A 'Tog of any size will get right back in structure when hooked and you need to turn that head right upon hookset.
We are veering a bit more off topic here (I am one of the guilty parties :) ), but I think that Mark was noting that lever drags will ramp up from freespool to wherever you stop the lever, which is a nice way to go from freespool when feeding a large moving fish a live bait. And sometimes you want to to start with a bit lower drag, for example a speeding yellowfin taking the bait right next to the rail.
One of the main advantages of a lever drag is not taken advantage of if you already have the reel in gear when the fish is hooked. Not sure that I would put that style of tautog fishing in the category where you are functionally better off using a lever drag.
But we all get to chose our own gear based on our own preferences. The Baja Special/US Senator is an attempt to beef up a standard star drag reel for folk that prefer star drags in situations where a good argument could be made that a lever drag would be most advantageous. Same idea, other direction.
My favorite tuna reel is a fly reel, which has to be the least optimal reel type of all for that type of fishing :)
-J