So my insert popped out. I ordered some replacements. I got them and when I tried to re-insert the ceramic guide i could not. it was just a tiny bit bigger then the metal guide (makes sense since there is a groove in the insert so it stays in place).
I tried heating the guide with a lighter for about 10 secs and attempted to jam the guide in but it would not. I used a pair of pliers to force it in but bad idea. The insert shattered. So now I have 3 more inserts lefts.
On utube a guy used a duster can to supercool the guide. He says that made it more malleable and pooped in his insert.
Before I go out and buy a can of dust....will that work? My high school science tells me heat EXPANDS metal but cold CONTRACTS it. So wouldn't the metal guide actually shrink a bit making it harder to pop the insert back in?
Thanks for any tips...heat or cold?
here's mr.freezes' video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ_e-Ci4cns
(https://www.in-fisherman.com/files/2016/10/Guide-Parts-The-Essentials-Of-Ceramic-Rod-Guide-Inserts.jpg)
Suspect he cooled the ring not the guide. Frankly of I lose a ring i redo the guide. But that's just me
Cerecoils are a unique guide from REC Components made from Nitinol. Nitinol is a "memory" wire that is flexible at room temperature, but when super chilled will temporarily lose its memory. REC sells replacement inserts for these guides. You chill the guide frame, stretch it open, drop in a new insert, and it will flex back to the original shape when back at room temperature.
I haven't heard of a process for reliably replacing just the insert on a typical guide, or even anybody selling replacement inserts for typical guides.
Memory wire is pretty cool stuff:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_titanium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_titanium)
-J
my guide is a fuji...i KNOW i should replace the whole guide etc but I suck at that...and the local places are charging $50 for a single guide replacement...(i'm in canada...ripoffoff country lol)...
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on December 11, 2022, 01:54:31 AMSuspect he cooled the ring not the guide. Frankly of I lose a ring i redo the guide. But that's just me
thanks...but his vid suggest he's cooling the metal guide...argh...
Heat makes thing expand. Cold makes them shrink. So, heat the frame and freeze the ring.
he's working w/ titanium & special design:
the metal frame is NOT a complete circle around the ceramic
you have zero chance of doing same w/ regular steel guide
Im sorry I can't help with your question but I've always replaced the guide after something like that happens. Once it happens, I'd be worried it would do it, pop out, again while I had "the fish" on and cut the line. There are a lot of utubes on how to replace a guide that can be very helpful!! It's really not that hard and doesn't take much time. Yes, pay the price for the professional if you want it "perfect" but do a solid job and it's good as new with some character!
Mike
Quote from: pointbob on December 11, 2022, 03:07:25 AM...the local places are charging $50 for a single guide replacement[/b]...(i'm in canada...ripoffoff country lol)...
Last time I asked it was $8 at Pacific Angler on Broadway in Vancouver.
Quote from: pointbob on December 11, 2022, 03:08:08 AMQuote from: JasonGotaProblem on December 11, 2022, 01:54:31 AMSuspect he cooled the ring not the guide. Frankly of I lose a ring i redo the guide. But that's just me
thanks...but his vid suggest he's cooling the metal guide...argh...
Sorry if I was not clear in my earlier reply. The guide frame in the video is made with an unusual alloy. The freeze technique only works on this alloy. At room temperature, the frame wire is springy. When chilled it temporarily lengthens and loses elasticity, allowing you open it up enough to insert a new ring.
Freezing will only work if the frame is made with this alloy (Nitinol).
Quote from: philaroman on December 11, 2022, 03:35:26 AMhe's working w/ titanium & special design:
the metal frame is NOT a complete circle around the ceramic
you have zero chance of doing same w/ regular steel guide
Yes! Worth noting that this stuff is not really titanium. Nitinol is around 50-60 percent nickel and the rest titanium. It has extreme changes in properties (memory, elasticity and dimensions) based on temperature. Regular titanium is not the same.
The REC Recoil guides are also made from the same wire.
-J
My first thought was "cool" because rings do fall out. I have had success with gluing them back using epoxy or even Superglue. Its not everlasting.
However I noticed the ring in the video does not have a bottom, it's not a complete round ring and it does not look like the examples above.
I cut this from the video, do I need new glasses?
AFTERTHOUGHT
I see philaroman also noticed this!
Replacing the entire guide would obviously be the best bet.....but
I have popped an insert back into the frame and then surrounded the insert on both sides with 5 minute epoxy using a toothpick. It was on a light weight bait rod so I didn't rally care all that much. It stayed in played for quite some time and was actually surprising. It was intended to be a emergency fix until I replaced it but I never had to. Fished that rod for a long time until my subwoofer box came loose on a turn and the corner smashed that rod in half.
Again it was a small bait rod and not something I was hunting a fish of a lifetime on.
Quote from: jurelometer on December 11, 2022, 08:18:12 AMQuote from: philaroman on December 11, 2022, 03:35:26 AMhe's working w/ titanium & special design:
the metal frame is NOT a complete circle around the ceramic
you have zero chance of doing same w/ regular steel guide
Yes! Worth noting that this stuff is not really titanium. Nitinol is around 50-60 percent nickel and the rest titanium. It has extreme changes in properties (memory, elasticity and dimensions) based on temperature. Regular titanium is not the same.
The REC Recoil guides are also made from the same wire.
-J
really? that much Ni? always thought it was mostly Ti,
but they didn't want to call it
Titanick :D :D :D
Quote from: whalebreath on December 11, 2022, 04:08:48 AMQuote from: pointbob on December 11, 2022, 03:07:25 AM...the local places are charging $50 for a single guide replacement[/b]...(i'm in canada...ripoffoff country lol)...
Last time I asked it was $8 at Pacific Angler on Broadway in Vancouver.
it's a custom rod with specific thread which is difficult to source; they have told me.
and the guides are Fuji SiC guides (that's basically metal...right lol..it should respond to heat....if i heat it too much will it bend and flop down?)
Ooh, replacement ceramic ring inserts are a thing. Never knew this! But I could only see generic third party product, not replacement rings from the original manufacturer.
The problem is that you need to find a good size match. Heating the ring is not going help much at all. While stainless will expand with heat, the expansion is not that much at a safe temperature. We went through the actual formulas for stainless thermal expansion on a drag stack debate, but this time I am too lazy and just used a online calculator. If you heat a thin stainless steel ring from room temp to 250F, a ring with a 12mm inside diameter would expand to 12.009 mm. That is less than 1/10 of one percent. I would expect that thermal contraction on the ceramic is going to be even more minimal.
Here is the online calculator. It has the formulas as well, in case you want to do this from scratch:
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thin-circular-ring-radius-temperature-change-d_1612.html (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thin-circular-ring-radius-temperature-change-d_1612.html)
If you are dead set against rewrapping with a new guide, using an undersizided ring and filling the void with a good paste epoxy (I like PC-7 or PC-11) might be worth a try.
Quote from: pointbob on December 11, 2022, 08:11:52 PMQuote from: whalebreath on December 11, 2022, 04:08:48 AMQuote from: pointbob on December 11, 2022, 03:07:25 AM...the local places are charging $50 for a single guide replacement[/b]...(i'm in canada...ripoffoff country lol)...
Last time I asked it was $8 at Pacific Angler on Broadway in Vancouver.
it's a custom rod with specific thread which is difficult to source; they have told me.
and the guides are Fuji SiC guides (that's basically metal...right lol..it should respond to heat....if i heat it too much will it bend and flop down?)
If you heat it to much, you will have also heated the blank and damaged it.
SiC is the type of ceramic. The frame will be stainless.
Maybe live with a less than perfect color match on a replacement wrap?
-J
I have a giant stash of old thread, if you can post a picture we'll see if we can match it, I might have a quide too
Quote from: oc1 on December 11, 2022, 03:21:21 AMHeat makes thing expand. Cold makes them shrink. So, heat the frame and freeze the ring.
Not always.
Unlike most metals, Nitinol wire gets longer when cooled an shorter when hot. That is why a freezer spay is used for ring replacement on Nitinol frame guides.
The robotics guys use Nitinol it because running electrical current through it will heat it and cause it to contract, analogous to a muscle fiber. Can be used instead of complicated and bulky mechanical devices controlled by servos, especially for lower loads.
A link in my previous post has another link to a Ford patent for an automatic transmission derailleur for e-bikes. You program the RPMS that you want to pedal at, and if you are pedaling too slow or fast, the controller switches gears for you. Very simple electronics and mechanical components by using a pair Nitinol wire to pull the derailleur back and for.
Sorry for getting off topic, but this stuff is just too cool...
-J
That tiny stretch calculated might be enough. Also check for a crack on the frame. If it cracked to allow the ring out, if you're careful you can pull it apart juuuuust enough, and glue the old one back in.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on December 11, 2022, 11:22:48 PMThat tiny stretch calculated might be enough. Also check for a crack on the frame. If it cracked to allow the ring out, if you're careful you can pull it apart juuuuust enough, and glue the old one back in.
0.009 mm is about 1/10 of the width of a human hair. I am guessing nope.
Quote from: philaroman on December 11, 2022, 03:23:44 PMreally? that much Ni? always thought it was mostly Ti,
but they didn't want to call it Titanick :D :D :D
They really should put philaroman in charge of coining all trade names everywhere :)
-J
Three more broken inserts later I foresee a new guide being installed, whether or not the frame of the guide has also joined the broken pile.
If the rod has Fuji SiCs on it then it's at least reasonably high-end, replace the guide and call it good.
Quote from: jurelometer on December 11, 2022, 08:36:10 PMSiC is the type of ceramic. The frame will be stainless.
Maybe live with a less than perfect color match on a replacement wrap?
-J
If you are very, very careful and patient there are ways to remove the finish just enough to save the thread and reuse it on a rewrap on a new exact match FUJI SIC guide. The thread wrap may be a little shorter than original but at least both the guide and thread color will match the rest of the rod. I know it can be done if you go at it slowly and patiently because I have done it a couple of times in the past.
Dremel out the inside of the frame very slowly til enough is removed to make space to pop it in with some adhesive?
Quote from: jurelometer on December 11, 2022, 09:55:12 PMQuote from: oc1 on December 11, 2022, 03:21:21 AMHeat makes thing expand. Cold makes them shrink. So, heat the frame and freeze the ring.
Not always.
Unlike most metals, Nitinol wire gets longer when cooled an shorter when hot. That is why a freezer spay is used for ring replacement on Nitinol frame guides.
The robotics guys use Nitinol it because running electrical current through it will heat it and cause it to contract, analogous to a muscle fiber. Can be used instead of complicated and bulky mechanical devices controlled by servos, especially for lower loads.
A link in my previous post has another link to a Ford patent for an automatic transmission derailleur for e-bikes. You program the RPMS that you want to pedal at, and if you are pedaling too slow or fast, the controller switches gears for you. Very simple electronics and mechanical components by using a pair Nitinol wire to pull the derailleur back and for.
Sorry for getting off topic, but this stuff is just too cool...
-J
Google is your friend!
Bob, we can walk you through wrapping a new, guide no biggy, you'll just need a tube of five minute epoxy which then has plenty of other uses. Plenty of free ways to make a little hand wrap in five minutes for that job.
John
Quote from: whalebreath on December 11, 2022, 04:08:48 AMQuote from: pointbob on December 11, 2022, 03:07:25 AM...the local places are charging $50 for a single guide replacement[/b]...(i'm in canada...ripoffoff country lol)...
Last time I asked it was $8 at Pacific Angler on Broadway in Vancouver.
I spoke them. $35 for the labour IF you provide the guide and thread. For the one guide (that sells for on ebay for about $14 cad). Yeah....i'm just going to live with a naked guide I think.
Quote from: pointbob on December 11, 2022, 03:07:25 AMmy guide is a fuji...i KNOW i should replace the whole guide etc but I suck at that...and the local places are charging $50 for a single guide replacement...(i'm in canada...ripoffoff country lol)...
If it's a single foot guide, you can probably heat up the epoxy with a heat gun and just wiggle the guide out. Then get some 5 minute epoxy and slide a new guide back in, easy peasy. I've done many guides just like that. Unless they used a locking wrap, the guide really should come out leaving the epoxy tunnel intact.
Quote from: Breadfan on December 13, 2022, 03:27:45 PMQuote from: pointbob on December 11, 2022, 03:07:25 AMmy guide is a fuji...i KNOW i should replace the whole guide etc but I suck at that...and the local places are charging $50 for a single guide replacement...(i'm in canada...ripoffoff country lol)...
If it's a single foot guide, you can probably heat up the epoxy with a heat gun and just wiggle the guide out. Then get some 5 minute epoxy and slide a new guide back in, easy peasy. I've done many guides just like that. Unless they used a locking wrap, the guide really should come out leaving the epoxy tunnel intact.
Post pics; I also have a bunch of vintage thread and some unobtainable Gudebrod sent me by my man Harry K. Hey Harry!
Between Sheridan and me, we may be able to help.
Quote from: thorhammer on December 13, 2022, 06:53:32 PMPost pics; I also have a bunch of vintage thread and some unobtainable Gudebrod sent me by my man Harry K. Hey Harry!
Between Sheridan and me, we may be able to help.
here's what it looks like...but with the old insert in it... (https://i.ibb.co/Bzt6BRM/DSCN2676.jpg)
Quote from: Breadfan on December 13, 2022, 03:28:27 PMQuote from: Breadfan on December 13, 2022, 03:27:45 PMQuote from: pointbob on December 11, 2022, 03:07:25 AMmy guide is a fuji...i KNOW i should replace the whole guide etc but I suck at that...and the local places are charging $50 for a single guide replacement...(i'm in canada...ripoffoff country lol)...
If it's a single foot guide, you can probably heat up the epoxy with a heat gun and just wiggle the guide out. Then get some 5 minute epoxy and slide a new guide back in, easy peasy. I've done many guides just like that. Unless they used a locking wrap, the guide really should come out leaving the epoxy tunnel intact.
I think its a dbl foot guide....would it still work..your idea?
(https://i.ibb.co/Bzt6BRM/DSCN2676.jpg)
Gorgeous rod! Is the green thread metallic? It is possible it is Gudebrod green metallic, but that and the silver is pretty closely matched with current metallics. Those are simple wraps. You won't be able to heat up and slide out, but if I was asked what's the easiest guide for me to wrap, it's that exact one. Big enough to handle easily and double-footed so you can tape one side with worrying about gluing before wrap like a teeny single foot.
you can take a couple small cardboard boxes, cut V notches in them, and they will work fine to cradle rod to wrap a guide and hold while you hand turn to let 5 minute epoxy set (actually about 20 minutes). and they're free....
put the spool in a little dish to keep it from rolling and wrap with hand tension. It's actually faster than wrapping on my rod carriage.
Quote from: thorhammer on December 13, 2022, 08:29:33 PMGorgeous rod! Is the green thread metallic? It is possible it is Gudebrod green metallic, but that and the silver is pretty closely matched with current metallics. Those are simple wraps. You won't be able to heat up and slide out, but if I was asked what's the easiest guide for me to wrap, it's that exact one. Big enough to handle easily and double-footed so you can tape one side with worrying about gluing before wrap like a teeny single foot.
you can take a couple small cardboard boxes, cut V notches in them, and they will work fine to cradle rod to wrap a guide and hold while you hand turn to let 5 minute epoxy set (actually about 20 minutes). and they're free....
put the spool in a little dish to keep it from rolling and wrap with hand tension. It's actually faster than wrapping on my rod carriage.
Thanks Thor. I;ve had it about 20 years. It's a rainshadow 12 ft blank (baitcast) that i use on the rivers for salmon. I've pulled in large fish I had to business being able to control...but the rod is great.
Yes...it's metallic thread. I maybe able to source it but I've never done anything more complex with a rod then cleaning the cork with windex lol.
I'll watch some youtube vids and see if I can muster up the courage to do it myself. I actually found the #10 fuji sic guide online for about $10usd.
Quote from: thorhammer on December 13, 2022, 08:29:33 PMGorgeous rod! Is the green thread metallic? It is possible it is Gudebrod green metallic, but that and the silver is pretty closely matched with current metallics. Those are simple wraps. You won't be able to heat up and slide out, but if I was asked what's the easiest guide for me to wrap, it's that exact one. Big enough to handle easily and double-footed so you can tape one side with worrying about gluing before wrap like a teeny single foot.
you can take a couple small cardboard boxes, cut V notches in them, and they will work fine to cradle rod to wrap a guide and hold while you hand turn to let 5 minute epoxy set (actually about 20 minutes). and they're free....
put the spool in a little dish to keep it from rolling and wrap with hand tension. It's actually faster than wrapping on my rod carriage.
I've probably spent too much time looking at epoxy online - but are you saying the standard 5min epoxy I can get at walmart will be ok to coat the thread with? or should i go with the 15min epoxy...to even complicate it more people are saying clear gorilla glue is great too...but the concerns' i've seen about epoxy is that it may crack under load when the rod bends...is this something I should be concerned about? I really don't want to buy the a ton of rod epoxy for one guide so I'd like to be able to get by with a suitable substitute...thank you!
Quote from: pointbob on December 15, 2022, 02:58:49 AMQuote from: thorhammer on December 13, 2022, 08:29:33 PMGorgeous rod! Is the green thread metallic? It is possible it is Gudebrod green metallic, but that and the silver is pretty closely matched with current metallics. Those are simple wraps. You won't be able to heat up and slide out, but if I was asked what's the easiest guide for me to wrap, it's that exact one. Big enough to handle easily and double-footed so you can tape one side with worrying about gluing before wrap like a teeny single foot.
you can take a couple small cardboard boxes, cut V notches in them, and they will work fine to cradle rod to wrap a guide and hold while you hand turn to let 5 minute epoxy set (actually about 20 minutes). and they're free....
put the spool in a little dish to keep it from rolling and wrap with hand tension. It's actually faster than wrapping on my rod carriage.
I've probably spent too much time looking at epoxy online - but are you saying the standard 5min epoxy I can get at walmart will be ok to coat the thread with? or should i go with the 15min epoxy...to even complicate it more people are saying clear gorilla glue is great too...but the concerns' i've seen about epoxy is that it may crack under load when the rod bends...is this something I should be concerned about? I really don't want to buy the a ton of rod epoxy for one guide so I'd like to be able to get by with a suitable substitute...thank you!
5 minute epoxy is definitely doable if you work very fast. You need it to be thin enough to penetrate the thread or you will end up with a guide that spins around the blank. It also yellows pretty fast when exposed to the sun.
They sell these little 6 gram packets of rod finish epoxy for about 3-4 bucks, which would be ideal if you can get it from a local tackle shop and not have to fork over shipping.
The nice thing about using epoxy is that it not not permanent. If you need to make a second attempt or decide to later hire a pro, the work can be undone. I wouldn't mess around with other types of glues unless I could convince myself that it wouldn't be too hard to strip off and rewrap.
Here's some older mettalic green and silver, if this will work I'll send it to you
You can buy a one shot kit of rod epoxy that should cover that, might be ok to recoat the other guides to seal up any cracks that have developed over the years
Quote from: Swami805 on December 15, 2022, 03:34:23 AMHere's some older mettalic green and silver, if this will work I'll send it to you
You can buy a one shot kit of rod epoxy that should cover that, might be ok to recoat the other guides to seal up any cracks that have developed over the years
You are too kind Swami!! I'm going to go thru my 12 boxes of fly tying gear and see if I don't have one that will substitute. Thank you again for your offer :)
Quote from: jurelometer on December 15, 2022, 03:23:14 AMQuote from: pointbob on December 15, 2022, 02:58:49 AMQuote from: thorhammer on December 13, 2022, 08:29:33 PMGorgeous rod! Is the green thread metallic? It is possible it is Gudebrod green metallic, but that and the silver is pretty closely matched with current metallics. Those are simple wraps. You won't be able to heat up and slide out, but if I was asked what's the easiest guide for me to wrap, it's that exact one. Big enough to handle easily and double-footed so you can tape one side with worrying about gluing before wrap like a teeny single foot.
you can take a couple small cardboard boxes, cut V notches in them, and they will work fine to cradle rod to wrap a guide and hold while you hand turn to let 5 minute epoxy set (actually about 20 minutes). and they're free....
put the spool in a little dish to keep it from rolling and wrap with hand tension. It's actually faster than wrapping on my rod carriage.
I've probably spent too much time looking at epoxy online - but are you saying the standard 5min epoxy I can get at walmart will be ok to coat the thread with? or should i go with the 15min epoxy...to even complicate it more people are saying clear gorilla glue is great too...but the concerns' i've seen about epoxy is that it may crack under load when the rod bends...is this something I should be concerned about? I really don't want to buy the a ton of rod epoxy for one guide so I'd like to be able to get by with a suitable substitute...thank you!
5 minute epoxy is definitely doable if you work very fast. You need it to be thin enough to penetrate the thread or you will end up with a guide that spins around the blank. It also yellows pretty fast when exposed to the sun.
They sell these little 6 gram packets of rod finish epoxy for about 3-4 bucks, which would be ideal if you can get it from a local tackle shop and not have to fork over shipping.
The nice thing about using epoxy is that it not not permanent. If you need to make a second attempt or decide to later hire a pro, the work can be undone. I wouldn't mess around with other types of glues unless I could convince myself that it wouldn't be too hard to strip off and rewrap.
Thanks a lot jurelometer - I'll be grabbing that epoxy then. Appreciated!
I've found a drop or two of acetone into 5 min epoxy (AFTER MIXING NOT BEFORE) will thin it a bit and also turn it into 10 min epoxy without negatively impacting the end result.
But it will yellow. Like crazy. If thats an issue its worth getting rod epoxy if not, no problem.
Quote from: pointbob on December 15, 2022, 02:58:49 AMQuote from: thorhammer on December 13, 2022, 08:29:33 PMGorgeous rod! Is the green thread metallic? It is possible it is Gudebrod green metallic, but that and the silver is pretty closely matched with current metallics. Those are simple wraps. You won't be able to heat up and slide out, but if I was asked what's the easiest guide for me to wrap, it's that exact one. Big enough to handle easily and double-footed so you can tape one side with worrying about gluing before wrap like a teeny single foot.
you can take a couple small cardboard boxes, cut V notches in them, and they will work fine to cradle rod to wrap a guide and hold while you hand turn to let 5 minute epoxy set (actually about 20 minutes). and they're free....
put the spool in a little dish to keep it from rolling and wrap with hand tension. It's actually faster than wrapping on my rod carriage.
I've probably spent too much time looking at epoxy online - but are you saying the standard 5min epoxy I can get at walmart will be ok to coat the thread with? or should i go with the 15min epoxy...to even complicate it more people are saying clear gorilla glue is great too...but the concerns' i've seen about epoxy is that it may crack under load when the rod bends...is this something I should be concerned about? I really don't want to buy the a ton of rod epoxy for one guide so I'd like to be able to get by with a suitable substitute...thank you!
Not know but, well, no. Use rod finish. 5 minute or even regular epoxy looks like crap. I know, I've used it. They are a glue, not a finish. Use a good rod finish epoxy like D2 or you will be disappointed and don't forget the color preserver first. If you are going to do it, do it right.
On the color preservative, it depends on how the other guides were wrapped. It the wraps are a bit translucent, then no color preservative was used. Even if color preservative was used, skipping it won't be as obvious with metallic thread. Just a bit darker.
CP works by coating the wraps so that the epoxy does not penetrate. which also means slightly less effective wraps. It is fairly common to not use CP on rods without underwraps, especially custom builds. If you take a few sample turns of the new thread and wet (with alcohol?) you will get an idea of what the wrap will look like after epoxy with no CP.
It has been my experience that when I do a less than perfect guide replacement, nobody notices but me, and after a couple fish, I don't notice either.
YMMV.
-J
A master couldn't make a new guide wrapping look exactly like the rest of the guide wrappings If you have the thread and the finishing materials them you might as well re-wrap the whole rod. If you don't care if it matches then you have a lot of latitude and anything coated in 5-minute epoxy will work.