I have a big fishing trip coming up this June and I just realized that two of my rods are missing guide inserts. One rod is an Abu Garcia Vengeance rod and the other is a Berkley Lightning Rod.
The Vengeance rod is supposed to have stainless steel guides but I don't know about the insert material.
I'm not so sure what the Lightning Rod is supposed to have.
In the pictures below, you can see each rod and what the guides are supposed to be like and the guides that are missing the inserts. The Garcia rod is silver and the Berkley rod is black.
Is it possible to just replace the insert?
I saw a video on You Tube where a guy bought a kit of ceramic inserts and installed the best fit insert using 10 minute epoxy but I don't know if that's an acceptable repair (generally speaking).
I am completely new to rod repair. I created my first rod repair post last year but that was to replace the entire guide on an old Garcia Conolon rod and I was particular about finding a guide to match the originals.
Thanks in advance...
Much better off replacing the guides. The tip should be attached with some type of hot glue and very easy to replace. Normally when the insert comes out there's a problem with the guide frame and a new ring will probably fail again, usually at the worst possible time ( Murphy's law). Plenty of dyi stuff on the interwebs, probably a few on here
I have never successfully done it and had it last. You have time to get then replaced.
Search for someone in your area if you dont feel like a job you can do yourself, replacing guides on those Freshwater rods should be cheap.
that said, my opinion is also NO, well its doable but not recommended but I had a friend was pretty good on MacGyver jobs and the way he fixed his rod guides was the next, you need to find a matching guide then unglued the ceramic insert, buy a good quality "rear mirror glue" (its is supposed to be pretty strong) and glue the ceramic insert on the frame, let it dry and then add some more glue on the front side and back of the frame all around the ceramic, it might not look pretty but that worked for him.
sidenote: I will always recommend to replace the guide but the above might good option for a DYI hurry repair
I have at times glued guide rings with epoxy or superglue. For me it's an acceptable temporary solution but never lasts.
If you are going on an important trip then replace the guide before you go.
Tip tops are easy. Gently heat up the tip and gently pull/twist the whole tip top off replace with a little hot melt glue, and a new tip top, you just have to figure out what size it it. Now you'll have a few extras for other repairs. line it up with the other guides and let cool. Not worth just replacing just the ceramic in my opinion in either case. Here's a little trick you can try, grab the base of the guide with a pair of pliers and gently twist and pull the whole thing out without disturbing the wrap. Now either hot melt or super glue/epoxy replacement in place. Have done this many times as a quickly replacement, only ending up as a permanent solution. No need to re-wrap single foot guides. Double footed guides, take only one side off to replace. I know this isn't what you asked, but this is the minimum I would do. If you have the ceramic and it is unbroken, I guess you could try superglue in a pinch. I would try and toughen up both surfaces with sandpaper to aid adhesion.
Thanks to all of you for your responses above. You have convinced me to not monkey around with using epoxy on a replacement insert so now my question is how do I identify what material they are made from? I have to ID both the guide and the insert. I guess I can check the guide with a magnet to determine if it's stainless steel. I do have a rod guide ID tool ($10 piece of plastic with holes and pegs to size the guides...I'm sure you guys know what I'm referring to) that I purchased for my old Garcia Conolon rod that I can use to determine the size. So I'm confident that I can ID the size. But regarding materials, there are so many guide and insert materials available that for me as a newbie it's overwhelming. Does it help you to know that both of these rods are around $50 new? So the guide and insert material can't be something too expensive because these aren't "high end" rods. Could they be Fuji guides with ceramic inserts? Seems to me that is a common guide and insert combo?
Look closely on the guide frame and see if there's a name stamped on it , that would narrow things down
Just me, but I would only focus on the ring size for a $50 rod—-guide replacement. But not just the size, also the height of the ring from the rod so it's even with the others.
The hardest thing for me is removing the old thread without cutting/scraping-up the rod. Best way to do this is unknown to me...
Also check closely your other guides. Tiny breaks in the metal or cracks in the inserts are sometimes hard to see.
I checked both guides last night with a magnet and both are non-magnetic so I'm assuming I have stainless steel guides on both rods (one is painted black the other isn't painted). However I still don't know what the inserts are made of. Do any of you have suggestions? Ceramic? Also, can someone point me to a good source for purchasing these guides? Maybe I can have someone there help me select the correct replacements.
Hamachi, it sounds like you are saying I can remove the single foot guide by just pulling it without heating it? Yes? I think what you are saying is described in the attached snippet which is found on page 2 of this forum post: https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=36021.0
Swami805, the only markings I saw on the guide is this as shown in the picture below (this is obviously not the guide that is missing the insert).
I would follow the instructions in what you found from Breadfan if you want to remove/replace the guide. You might be able to complete that long before discovering the correct insert. Sometimes inserts don't just pop right in as easily as they popped out.
Shellbelly, I think the fellas above have convinced me that replacing the insert probably isn't a long-term solution so I'm going to replace both guides. Now I just need help figuring out the insert material and where to buy them.
Mudhole
Quote from: Walleye Guy on March 10, 2023, 08:06:47 PM......Now I just need help figuring out the insert material and where to buy them.
no need to think a lot about insert material, get the regular aluminum oxide insert, its the cheapest one and its really good for use with monofilament line and braided line, if you're going to order them online get whatever ceramic option, for those rods dont go overboard choosing Sic or NiC ceramic or Titanium frame, any regular steel guide with any brand or kind of ceramic material will work, just focus on order the correct sizes and how to DIY the installation of the guide.
if you are going to order them online there are plenty of options, everybody has its favorites, mudhole, getbitoutdoors, therodroom, etc.etc
steelfish, thank-you...that's what I needed to hear from someone who is familiar with the different types of inserts. I'll call one of those shops you mentioned and get some guides ordered.
I just replaced a damaged double-footed guide (small one #8) on a saltwater rod. It was actually easier than I thought and took maybe a hour max. just need heat gun/air dryer, sharp razor blade, thread & a little epoxy. If I can do it, anyone can. (I did have a rod wrapper already setup)
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmudhole.com%2Fblogs%2Ftips-tricks%2Fhow-to-remove-replace-casting-rod-guides&data=05%7C01%7C%7C04102017952640cda22608db1b3a2a54%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638133708863793810%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KFlj1PEpW%2F2HqoB1fZnK7tK9SBmdZZEB2O782o2NTfE%3D&reserved=0
honestly if it was an insert somewhere in the middle of the rod i would not bother since the other guides will carry the load. only exception would be the tip. and that's easy peazy.
It's the tip? As other said, it's easy to replace the tip guide... heat it up to soften the glue, pull it off, apply some hot glue and slide the new guide in place, then go fishing!
MarkT, there are two rods...one needs a tip-top and the other needs a single-foot guide next to the tip-top.
Update: I removed both guides over the weekend. I heated the Lightning Rod tip-top with a lighter and it slid off without much trouble but I burned some of the coating (epoxy?) in the process. When I worked on the Abu Garcia rod, I used my wife's hair dryer so I wouldn't burn anything. That worked but it just took longer to melt the glue enough that the guide would slide out. I hope the "tunnel" is still there for when I install the new one. Now I have to source replacements.
A lot of good information and suggestions here. There aren't any local tackle shops you can call to see if they have the parts? Sometimes even wallymart has tiptops with hot melt glue, but they are downsizing their fishing tackle areas. Always take a quick browse whenever I stop there.
Size and fitment is more important than color or material, but that matters to some people. Whole guide kits available online.
I called Get Bit Outdoors on Friday but their voicemail box was full so I sent them an email. If I don't hear back soon then I'll try Mudhole or the Rod Room. I'm not aware of any local tackle shops in this area. Unfortunately a few older shops closed over the last few years...I think a result of the covid shut-downs.
I usually get my stuff at Mud Hole or Jann's Netcraft. They both have good selections to choose from and prices are reasonable, especially considering the time spent and what it costs to drive somewhere these days.
Quote from: Gfish on March 09, 2023, 02:34:10 PMThe hardest thing for me is removing the old thread without cutting/scraping-up the rod. Best way to do this is unknown to me...
G, I find it easiest to cut the windings with a flat razor blade. Hold the blade horizontally and shave the windings off above the guide foot. That way you never touch the blank. After you remove the guide, you can usually just pull the windings off with your thumbnail.
I made contact with a guy over at Get Bit Outdoors and sent him the guide info. Hopefully he can get me set up. I'll report back...
Quote from: ourford on March 13, 2023, 11:04:23 PMQuote from: Gfish on March 09, 2023, 02:34:10 PMThe hardest thing for me is removing the old thread without cutting/scraping-up the rod. Best way to do this is unknown to me...
G, I find it easiest to cut the windings with a flat razor blade. Hold the blade horizontally and shave the windings off above the guide foot. That way you never touch the blank. After you remove the guide, you can usually just pull the windings off with your thumbnail.
I use a sharp knife (whatever I have on hand) and always start my cut on the bottom of the guide foot (or top ignite the upper portion of a double footer) and always cut toward the guide. That way the guide always stands between the blade and the blank. Sometimes the guide flies across the room, but thats cool too.
I received the parts from Get Bit and installed the tip-top on my Lightning Rod but unfortunately the "tunnel" on the Garcia Vengeance rod didn't survive the reinstallation procedure. How does one reinstall a single foot guide when the tunnel (not sure of correct term) is destroyed? I don't know the correct term for the material that retained the guide. Is it epoxy? It's not thread but looks more like heat shrink tubing that I use when doing electrical repairs. See picture below. Also, my wife found a local rod repair guy on Facebook so I do have the option of bringing it to him.
Looks like epoxy coat thread to me but the picture is a little blurry
It's the old thread. Clean it off. Run the guide foot lightly across top of your tip glue stick to position it on the rod where you want it. It won't be straight. That's expected; you just want it in place while you wrap. Take two small carboard boxes and cut V's on two opposing sides to make a rod cradle. You can use black upholstery thread from walmart to wrap if you don't have any rod thread. Position the rod and start the thread below the guide foot- tie onto rod with am over hand knot with two wraps so you can snug it down. Wrap towards the guide, over the tag end several wrap, snug tag end, snip off tag. Continue to wind toward guide. At about 3/16" from the guide leg, place your whip pull thread. Finished wrap to the legs, cut, and pull thru with whip loop. Hold tag end perpendicular to rod and trim as snug as possible with razor blade or sharp scissors. Coat with a few coats of clear nail polish if using upholstery thread to seal it. You can at this point apply five minute epoxy and hand turn until it sets, use clear gorilla glue and turn every so often, apply a few more coats of nail lacquer, or use any varnish or poly you have around. All work, and you're unlikely to lose any performance on a light lightning rod with any of these measures.
You COULD just take it to the guy- but odds are you're gonna need to do it again so may as well learn.
What Thor said. Also, there are plenty of YouTube videos to show you how to start the wraps with the tag end and how to end the wrap at the guide. Light mono or light braid works really well for your thread pulling loop.
Thank-you everyone for that advice. I'd really like to try the repair myself but lack of free time is the story of my life right now. :-[ Let me ponder that...I just have to have it finished before my Canada trip in June so it's not urgent (yet). I'll keep you posted on what I do.
Quote from: Walleye Guy on April 12, 2023, 06:53:13 PM..... but lack of free time
since many years ago I never have actually any "free time" on a day or week even before working on rods & reels, now I just need to push some activities from one day to another one, maybe cut my sleep to 4hrs only for 3 days, get up earlier on sleepy sundays, etc. thats the only way to have a daylight job and work on fishing rods and reels after that :)
since you dont have any free time, when you are busy on the W.C. ;D , check some videos on how to install a fishing guide.
my compadre John (thorhammer) just gave your many DIY options
once you assemble the "stuff", this repair takes ten minutes tops. Take Tom's advice- youtoob it and it will make sense. I've been meaning to do a vid on very basic rod repair, sort of whats-laying-close-by-on-the-bench MASH unit thinking, for years. 30 or 50 lb braid works great in a pinch. Color it with a black sharpie. It will be the strongest wrapped guide on there for sure. Thing is, once you find that ten minutes, you'll tell yourself, "self, I saw on the yootube where a guy made a rod dryer out of an old grill rotisserie motor", right about the time your neighbor's grill burns out. You'll be on the street pile with a socket getting it out to repurpose. Then you'll find a broken rod in a trash can missing a tip, and go "oh hell, I got this...". Then You'll rewrap ten dollar St Croix you saw at a yard sale. Then you'll be back to Get Bit ordering blanks to build because your buddy what had the grill saw your nice work and wants a bass rod. Then you'll be sleeping four hours like Alex 8) ;D ;D ;D ;D
This isn't chikkn little sky is falling doomspeak....I broke a tip in about 1994, and now a few hundred rod jobs (starting with that rotisserie motor) later....
Compadre, get some sleep. 4 hours isnt good as a sustained practice.
Quote from: thorhammer on April 12, 2023, 08:06:20 PM......... Then you'll be sleeping four hours like Alex 8) ;D ;D ;D ;D
.........Compadre, get some sleep. 4 hours isnt good as a sustained practice.
haha good one amigo !!
that was just an example to make a 28hrs day ::)
when I started to accept orders from outside my friendship circle, there is only one condition I ways say to accept a job, no rush time and dont put me due dates, so, with that said, if good day/night I dont feel like working on a reel or rod I just dont touch them and get my 8hr or 9hrs sleep ;)
John is right. 2 years ago i decided to build ONE rod. Look what happened.
I contacted the rod guy (that my wife located on Facebook) and he said he'll charge $20 to do the repair (normally it's $25 but I already have the guide). I'll contact Get Bit and see how much the materials would cost to do it myself. I already have the two part epoxy for house repairs. I really want to do this myself but could see myself really getting into it. The last thing I need is another hobby that I don't have time for lol.
Quote from: Walleye Guy on April 13, 2023, 08:03:40 PMI'll contact Get Bit and see how much the materials would cost to do it myself. I already have the two part epoxy for house repairs.
checking the color of the thread you need to wrap your guide, dont need to call Getbit, since you already have the rod guide and home epoxy just go to wallyworld or another place that sells upholstery black thread and follow the instructions of any youtube video about this job.
I went to the darkside on May 2016, when I asked for help to install a guide on a shimano trevala rod (sounds familiar, hu?), of course many at.com members came to the rescue.
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=17977.0
few months later I modified a wood box I built to carry tools around the house to build me a "manual rod wrapper "
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=18922.0
few years later Alan opened me my own custom rod section on the forum 8)
https://alantani.com/index.php?board=138.0
Guys, I just wanted to follow up. I got scheduled at work for two more travel trips out of town for a few days each so I decided to just bring the rod to the local gentleman to get the guide repaired. I think it was a blessing in disguise, though, because he said after he removed the factory rod varnish and thread and was setting up to start adding the guide that the rod broke right where the guide was located. I wonder if I got it too hot when I heated it to remove the broken guide? Do you guys see a correlation with what happened? To fix it, he filed about 1/64 off each end to clean off the burrs, then sanded down a piece of solid carbon fiber rod to fit nicely and join the two pieces (about 4" on each side of the joint) and glued it in place.
The other possibility is whatever trauma damaged the guide may have damaged the blank too, but since you can't fish it with a busted guide, it was never bent to discover that damage.
Butttt I have definitely broken a rod by overheating it while trying to soften the wrap. In fact I learned 2 things about myself that day:
1. Alcohol and rod building don't mix
2. Uncontrolled heat should never be near a rod.
When i just absolutely can't get the epoxy off without heat, I've been known to soak a folded paper towel in very hot but nowhere near boiling water, put it in a Ziploc, and wrap it around the rod at that location for a minute or two. That way the heat is applied slowly and evenly, and it can't ever go above the temp of the water.
What Jason said.
I have repaired a lot of rods with a shunt, and done properly, while it might change the action a bit, usually becomes the strongest part of the rod. Many years ago, I bought am armload of US gutts butt blanks, when they got out of the blank biz. As I would usually whack several inches off the whippy tip to get where I wanted, I kept the solid glass discards for shunts. They flex and do not break. Repair as you indicated and reset the guide train as necessary, so the shunt is epoxied in place and then overwrap the guide on top of the repair. The repair is totally hidden and now the rod in that section is solid with multiple epoxy coats. Potentially it then stresses the next weakest spot in the rod but I've yet to have a fail.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on April 28, 2023, 01:16:32 PMThe other possibility is whatever trauma damaged the guide may have damaged the blank too, but since you can't fish it with a busted guide, it was never bent to discover that damage.
Butttt I have definitely broken a rod by overheating it while trying to soften the wrap. In fact I learned 2 things about myself that day:
1. Alcohol and rod building don't mix
2. Uncontrolled heat should never be near a rod.
When i just absolutely can't get the epoxy off without heat, I've been known to soak a folded paper towel in very hot but nowhere near boiling water, put it in a Ziploc, and wrap it around the rod at that location for a minute or two. That way the heat is applied slowly and evenly, and it can't ever go above the temp of the water.
Jason, what do you consider "uncontrolled heat"? Would a lighter be in that category? I used a lighter but maybe I should have used my heat gun instead.
Quote from: Walleye Guy on April 28, 2023, 08:18:33 PMQuote from: JasonGotaProblem on April 28, 2023, 01:16:32 PMThe other possibility is whatever trauma damaged the guide may have damaged the blank too, but since you can't fish it with a busted guide, it was never bent to discover that damage.
Butttt I have definitely broken a rod by overheating it while trying to soften the wrap. In fact I learned 2 things about myself that day:
1. Alcohol and rod building don't mix
2. Uncontrolled heat should never be near a rod.
When i just absolutely can't get the epoxy off without heat, I've been known to soak a folded paper towel in very hot but nowhere near boiling water, put it in a Ziploc, and wrap it around the rod at that location for a minute or two. That way the heat is applied slowly and evenly, and it can't ever go above the temp of the water.
Jason, what do you consider "uncontrolled heat"? Would a lighter be in that category? I used a lighter but maybe I should have used my heat gun instead.
Yes I ruined mine with a lighter. Heat gun can be too much too if you hold it too long
For the record:
Two problems with heat guns: First, unless you get a mini heat gun with a special reducer tip, you are heating way too large an area. Second is that all the heat guns that I seen don't have nearly a low enough setting.
To remove the tip top, use some needle nose pliers, and while gently but firmly pulling on the tip top, quickly pass a lighter or similar heat source under the metal tube, taking care to avoid applying any heat directly to the blank. If the tip top was glued on with ferrule cement or five minute epoxy, it should pop right off quickly, and any heat will quickly dissipate with the metal tip top removed.
I have never had to use heat to remove the other guides. Just slide a razor blade on top of the guide foot. Since nylon does not stick that well to epoxy, the rest of the thread will unwind right off the blank. This is also why I am not a big fan of using alternate finishes for rod wrapping, even field repair.
-J
For the record:
I don't think it can be put any clearer or better than Dave did. I have never needed to use heat to remove a mid blank guide.
Quote from: jurelometer on April 28, 2023, 11:44:01 PMFor the record:
Two problems with heat guns: First, unless you get a mini heat gun with a special reducer tip, you are heating way too large an area. Second is that all the heat guns that I seen don't have nearly a low enough setting.
To remove the tip top, use some needle nose pliers, and while gently but firmly pulling on the tip top, quickly pass a lighter or similar heat source under the metal tube, taking care to avoid applying any heat directly to the blank. If the tip top was glued on with ferrule cement or five minute epoxy, it should pop right off quickly, and any heat will quickly dissipate with the metal tip top removed.
I have never had to use heat to remove the other guides. Just slide a razor blade on top of the guide foot. Since nylon does not stick that well to epoxy, the rest of the thread will unwind right off the blank. This is also why I am not a big fan of using alternate finishes for rod wrapping, even field repair.
-J
Based on this procedure I can say yes I applied too much heat to the tip-top guide when I removed it. I also applied too much heat when removing the last guide (next to the tip top) however I only used heat here (versus a razor blade) because I was trying to save the "tunnel" in the wrap so I could sort of cheat when installing the replacement. These two heat applications were on two different rods. The Garcia Vengeance rod was broken when the gentleman removed the wrap to replace the guide and the other rod is a Lightning Rod that just had the tip top replaced. I'll try to fish the Lightning Rod before our Canada trip so if it's going to break then it'll break here instead of up there. Actually, I should fish both rods before hand...