There are two makers of upgraded Stainless Steel sleeves for the Penn Jigmaster . . . Cortez Conversions and PRO Challenger.
They sleeves are similar to each other, but not identical . . .
So, naturally, the question arises of what the advantages and disadvantages of each product might be.
So, here they are, "head to head".
Thanks, in advance, for everyone's input !
(1) Cortez Conversions . . .
CORTEZ - 1.JPG
CORTEZ - 2.JPG
CORTEZ - 6.JPG
CORTEZ - 3.JPG
CORTEZ - 4.JPG
CORTEZ - 5.JPG
(2) PRO Challenger . . .
PRO CHALLENGER - 1.JPG
PRO CHALLENGER - 2.JPG
PRO CHALLENGER - 3.JPG
PRO CHALLENGER - 4.JPG
Thanks, everyone . . .
Tight Lines !
Dave F.
Pics should be working now . . .
Tight Lines !
Dave F.
Both of these guys offer their parts here on the forum. Both gear sleeves do the intended job. Choosing one over the other is up to each individual. No sense insulting these guys that make our custom parts. Everyone has their own opinion, I have both on several reels and can't tell any difference
I have both as well, top notch products, Always excellent service from both. Can't go wrong with either one
Quote from: Maxed Out on July 22, 2022, 02:28:21 AMBoth of these guys offer their parts here on the forum. Both gear sleeves do the intended job. Choosing one over the other is up to each individual. No sense insulting these guys that make our custom parts. Everyone has their own opinion, I have both on several reels and can't tell any difference
This is a direct comparison between similar items, produced by two different manufacturers. The items are similar, but not identical, and their pricing is very close to each other.
I fail to see how an "open, honest comparison" would be an insult to either manufacturer.
Reviews of fishing reels, for example the Alan Hawke reviews, point out the strengths and weaknesses of the items being reviewed. If shortcomings are noted, that information is beneficial to consumers, even if it does not praise the manufacturer.
Dave F.
The Penn 50(X)'s and 3/0's are pretty dang tough right out of the box. I do like the idea of adding teeth to the AR gear as this could reduce wear and stress. Stainless certainly adds longevity. I'm neutral about the thread pitch.
Why not fab drag stars and offer them as a kit with the sleeve....one-stop shop.
I am trying to determine, since the two designs are different from each other, what the advantages or disadvantages of each sleve design might be.
For example, there appears to be a difference in the design of the "teeth" that engage the Dog(s) on the Bridge.
The PRO Challenger sleeve, from the pictures, appears to have "teeth" that are sharper at the tip, than the Cortez Conversions sleeve has.
QUESTIONS :
(1) Does this design provide more contact with the Dog(s) ?
(2) Due to the sharper tip, would it be more prone to wear or damage ?
(3) Would the "ramped" tooth of the Cortez reduce wear on the Dog(s) ?
(4) Is there any difference in strength between the two sleeves ?
As you can see, I am not "playing favorites", but simply comparing the two sleeves.
CORTEZ :
CORTEZ - 6.JPG
PRO :
PRO CHALLENGER - 1.JPG
Tight Lines !
Dave F.
My suspicion is that the SS sleeve was designed side by side with their SS dogs for a given reel. There's no reason the designs need to be identical as long as they're internally consistent. So my interpretation is if you use a Cortez sleeve you should use Cortez dogs for best results, and similarly if you use a PC sleeve, use PC dogs for best results. That doesnt mean either is better or worse.
Looks like the Cortez has a recess on the bottom, whereas the PC lays flat. Maybe there's a bridge model that requires that recess?
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on July 22, 2022, 03:28:52 PMMy suspicion is that the SS sleeve was designed side by side with their SS dogs for a given reel. There's no reason the designs need to be identical as long as they're internally consistent. So my interpretation is if you use a Cortez sleeve you should use Cortez dogs for best results, and similarly if you use a PC sleeve, use PC dogs for best results. That doesnt mean either is better or worse.
That's a very good point. I had not considered the Dogs themselves. Does Cortez make a "double-dog" bridge for the Jigmaster ?
Tight Lines !
Dave F.
Quote from: nelz on July 22, 2022, 03:35:46 PMLooks like the Cortez has a recess on the bottom, whereas the PC lays flat. Maybe there's a bridge model that requires that recess?
That's a good observation. I took a look at the different Jigmaster bridges, All variations would require a recess in the base of the sleeve. I think the angle of the PRO Challenger pic made it hard to see the recess.
Tight Lines !
Dave F.
Quote from: Shellbelly on July 22, 2022, 02:05:46 PMWhy not fab drag stars and offer them as a kit with the sleeve....one-stop shop.
I like that idea !
I learned something interesting about Stainless Steel, in general, and aftermarket Star Drag "wheels". Many aftermarket Star Drag wheels are made of Aluminum. Apparently, Aluminum & Stainless Steel "do not play well together" in threaded interactions. As a result, any aftermarket Star Drag wheels should have a Steel insert that interacts directly with the Stainless Steel sleeve.
Tight Lines !
Dave F.
Pro challenger makes stars for their sleeves with a stainless inserts. I have a few
Have there been any corrosion issues on the star drag where the SS insert meets the other metal...presumably aluminum? I can understand how the making of stainless stars could be problematic.
IF either sleeve producer recommends the other peripheral parts..dogs, springs, bridge, etc AND makes all these, then why not just sell the entire kit. After all, it's all stainless and will probably outlast the user and the rest of the reel.
Why put a stainless sleeve against a brass dog?
All that said, I like both products, but would lean toward a 10-tooth AR gear.
Quote from: Shellbelly on July 22, 2022, 06:54:40 PMHave there been any corrosion issues on the star drag where the SS insert meets the other metal...presumably aluminum? I can understand how the making of stainless stars could be problematic.
IF either sleeve producer recommends the other peripheral parts..dogs, springs, bridge, etc AND makes all these, then why not just sell the entire kit. After all, it's all stainless and will probably outlast the user and the rest of the reel.
Why put a stainless sleeve against a brass dog?
All that said, I like both products, but would lean toward a 10-tooth AR gear.
Both of these units have 10 teeth . . . Agreed about the Brass Dog vs. Stainless.
It appears that neither Cortez nor PRO Challenger make individual Dogs for the Jigmaster. The Dogs that PRO Challenger makes are integral to their Double-Dog Bridge.
PRO CHALLENGER - 5.JPG
Tight Lines !
Dave F.
Short answer: the benefit of the stainless sleeve in these reels is mostly to keep the handle arm junction from rounding off. If the sleeve fits on your bridge, you have a good sleeve.
Long answer:
There has been a ton of stuff posted on dog-ratchet design, how Jigmasters fail under load, galvanic corrosion, aluminum stars, etc., so I won't repeat too much of it.
1. Regarding the "problem" with all aluminum stars: Thin/wide aluminum stars can be prone to cross threading. Lots of aluminum drag knobs out there on other reels, but they tend to be thicker in the threaded section. Galvanic corrosion can occur anywhere you have stainless in contact with aluminum and saltwater, which includes many spots on some reels, and also in the stainless sleeved aluminum star.
2: Dog ratchet design: when designing a dog/ratchet mechanism, there is a standard formula for the the ratchet tooth shape and dog post location. In general, you want to minimize the travel of the dog, so flattening the top of the tooth helps here, but you have to leave enough tooth depth for the dog to fully engage. Try to squeeze in a few extra teeth and you may end up with pointy teeth. The points themselves are not so bad, but the ratchet teeth will have less meat behind them, which can mean less strength, especially if the dog does not drop all the way down due a misalignment from heavy load.
3. Tooth count: With a single dog, 8 to 10 teeth means a change from 45 to 36 degrees backplay. Better, but... meh. Double alternating dogs on the bridge has its own issues, but will make a more noticeable difference.
4. Sleeve design considerations: The aftermarket sleeve makers do not have much latitude in design, because the dog post location comes with the bridge plate. This controls the diameter of ratchet at the center of the tooth. Lots of classic mechanical design textbooks describe this, but it is not rocket surgery.
Most aftermarket stainless sleeves do not require specific dogs. Due to the previously mentioned limitations, the dog tooth shape is also controlled by the bridge design. So the dogs that came with the bridge should work shape wise, and it is not clear to me that harder dogs are buying you much on this design.
5. What a stainless sleeve does for reel performance: In the gear sleeve designs like the Jigmaster series, the first thing to go under load is the handle arm to gear sleeve junction rounding on the brass sleeve. Avoiding this problem is the main benefit that you get from a stainless sleeve. The next thing to go: Under winding load, the helical gears drive themselves apart axially, which levers the top of the post supporting the gear sleeve away from the spindle. Same thing can happen on the drag, but it takes more load. This misalignment can lead to dog failure or shredded gears, but a stainless sleeve is not buying you that much extra load capacity. The reel design itself is the limitation.
6. Support your local custom part markers. I am sure that there is better money to be made with those expensive CNC machines than cranking out parts for us at a very reasonable price point. I put stainless sleeves in the old Penns that I still fish, and am appreciative of the folk that make them.
-J
I buy from both makers and the only determining factor is availability. Haven't noticed any performance differences. One thing though, best to get stainless dogs to go with a SS gear sleeve, the brass can get chewed-on.
Quote from: Gfish on July 22, 2022, 08:48:39 PMI buy from both makers and the only determining factor is availability. Haven't noticed any performance differences. One thing though, best to get stainless dogs to go with a SS gear sleeve, the brass can get chewed-on.
Where did you find Stainless Dogs for the Jigmaster ? Neither Cortez nor PRO Challenger ( except for the double-dog Bridge ) make Dogs for the Jigmaster.
I can see how the Stainless Steel teeth on a Sleeve could cause higher wear on a Brass Dog.
Tight lines !
Dave F.
Quote from: jurelometer on July 22, 2022, 08:18:34 PMShort answer: the benefit of the stainless sleeve in these reels is mostly to keep the handle arm junction from rounding off. If the sleeve fits on your bridge, you have a good sleeve.
Long answer:
There has been a ton of stuff posted on dog-ratchet design, how Jigmasters fail under load, galvanic corrosion, aluminum stars, etc., so I won't repeat too much of it.
1. Regarding the "problem" with all aluminum stars: Thin/wide aluminum stars can be prone to cross threading. Lots of aluminum drag knobs out there on other reels, but they tend to be thicker in the threaded section. Galvanic corrosion can occur anywhere you have stainless in contact with aluminum and saltwater, which includes many spots on some reels, and also in the stainless sleeved aluminum star.
2: Dog ratchet design: when designing a dog/ratchet mechanism, there is a standard formula for the the ratchet tooth shape and dog post location. In general, you want to minimize the travel of the dog, so flattening the top of the tooth helps here, but you have to leave enough tooth depth for the dog to fully engage. Try to squeeze in a few extra teeth and you may end up with pointy teeth. The points themselves are not so bad, but the ratchet teeth will have less meat behind them, which can mean less strength, especially if the dog does not drop all the way down due a misalignment from heavy load.
3. Tooth count: With a single dog, 8 to 10 teeth means a change from 45 to 36 degrees backplay. Better, but... meh. Double alternating dogs on the bridge has its own issues, but will make a more noticeable difference.
4. Sleeve design considerations: The aftermarket sleeve makers do not have much latitude in design, because the dog post location comes with the bridge plate. This controls the diameter of ratchet at the center of the tooth. Lots of classic mechanical design textbooks describe this, but it is not rocket surgery.
Most aftermarket stainless sleeves do not require specific dogs. Due to the previously mentioned limitations, the dog tooth shape is also controlled by the bridge design. So the dogs that came with the bridge should work shape wise, and it is not clear to me that harder dogs are buying you much on this design.
5. What a stainless sleeve does for reel performance: In the gear sleeve designs like the Jigmaster series, the first thing to go under load is the handle arm to gear sleeve junction rounding on the brass sleeve. Avoiding this problem is the main benefit that you get from a stainless sleeve. The next thing to go: Under winding load, the helical gears drive themselves apart axially, which levers the top of the post supporting the gear sleeve away from the spindle. Same thing can happen on the drag, but it takes more load. This misalignment can lead to dog failure or shredded gears, but a stainless sleeve is not buying you that much extra load capacity. The reel design itself is the limitation.
6. Support your local custom part markers. I am sure that there is better money to be made with those expensive CNC machines than cranking out parts for us at a very reasonable price point. I put stainless sleeves in the old Penns that I still fish, and am appreciative of the folk that make them.
-J
Very interesting information !
Tight Lines !
Dave F.
Interesting about the dog wear. I would be curious as to where on the dog wear is happening. If the dog springs are not too strong, there is very little pressure on the dog leg against the ratchet when winding, and we don't really do that many rotations per day. if the face of the dog where it meets the ratchet tooth face is being worn, there is an alignment issue, and one side is probably worn more than the other. Probably no harm in a stainless dog. My Penns have no dog wear, but I don't fish them that often.
The dog spring just needs to be strong enough to swing the dog, which is next to nothing as long as there is not a bunch of grease to move out of the way.
I agree , the only time i have seen dog wear is when the spring was to strong . To the point you can hear it before you pull it apart . Another was when the bridge screws were loose and the dog rode half on and half off of the gear sleeve .
Most gear sleeve damage is done because of improper torque of the handle screw .
I agree with point #5 in the long answer and feel it is THE point. Given the original Penn design and material, this is the first weakness under load and is subject to many other factors. #5 proves the SS sleeve is a benefit for frequent users as long as the handle is well built, fits correctly, and stays tight.
It still seems to start a series of subsequent improvements, which I will call Capitalism and God Bless THAT!!
Quote from: oldmanjoe on July 23, 2022, 12:52:28 AMMost gear sleeve damage is done because of improper torque of the handle screw .
I found this site because I was looking for way to improve the load capacity of my much-loved Accurate-ed Jigmaster 505. I was tightening the star on a dry carbon fiber waster stack with a pair of pliers and getting low 20's drag, but I was shredding the gear sleeve, and wearing down the gear teeth. I don't think proper handle nut torque would have saved me. Alan (Tani) gently informed me that I was pushing the reel beyond its limits, and that I should probably put a stainless gear sleeve on it and lose the pliers :)
-J
Good advice. Too loose and too tight are bad mojo.
Quote from: ez2cdave on July 22, 2022, 09:49:28 PMQuote from: Gfish on July 22, 2022, 08:48:39 PMI buy from both makers and the only determining factor is availability. Haven't noticed any performance differences. One thing though, best to get stainless dogs to go with a SS gear sleeve, the brass can get chewed-on.
Where did you find StainlesS Dogs for the Jigmaster ? Neither Cortez nor PRO Challenger ( except for the double-dog Bridge ) make Dogs for the Jigmaster.
I can see how the Stainless Steel teeth on a Sleeve could cause higher wear on a Brass Dog.
Tight lines !
Dave F.
Actually, the 1st improvement I tried was the SS gear sleeve, while still using the old bridge+brass dog. That sucker was a grindin'. Perhaps it was in part the spring strength. Then I went to the double SS dog+bridge, much better.
Quote from: Maxed Out on July 23, 2022, 01:42:43 AMHi Dave. I apologize for my comments. I wasn't intending to insult you or anyone else
I will say that both these guys make quality parts and both stand behind the quality and workmanship 100%
Apology accepted ... All is well !
Tight Lines !
Dave F.
Quote from: Gfish on July 23, 2022, 06:06:37 PMActually, the 1st improvement I tried was the SS gear sleeve, while still using the old bridge+brass dog. That sucker was a grindin'. Perhaps it was in part the spring strength. Then I went to the double SS dog+bridge, much better.
So, the SS Dogs were the ones integral to the Double-Dog Bridge and not individual replacement SS Doogs for the "stock" Bridge, right ?
Tight Lines !
Dave F.
If I'm remembering right... Also the SS gear sets were hard on the old brass yokes. Shark Hunter Daron posted about that'n, so opened up my upgraded reel to see and oooppps!, godda change the yoke out.
Quote from: ez2cdave on July 22, 2022, 09:49:28 PMQuote from: Gfish on July 22, 2022, 08:48:39 PMI buy from both makers and the only determining factor is availability. Haven't noticed any performance differences. One thing though, best to get stainless dogs to go with a SS gear sleeve, the brass can get chewed-on.
Where did you find Stainless Dogs for the Jigmaster ? Neither Cortez nor PRO Challenger ( except for the double-dog Bridge ) make Dogs for the Jigmaster.
I can see how the Stainless Steel teeth on a Sleeve could cause higher wear on a Brass Dog.
Tight lines !
Dave F.
Keta used to supply us with stainless dogs for a lot of the Penn reels, including stock jigmasters. He started around 2012 but I don't think he has access to water cutter anymore.
Mike
Gear/pinion pairs of dissimilar metals don't wear out very fast, and they are under much more frictional load. The difference between a gear/pinion pair and a ratchet/dog pair is that the gears teeth are constantly rolling against each other under (often significant) load and slipping and banging a bit depending on the amount of backlash designed in. A properly designed ratchet/dog setup has the dog sliding over the ratchet with only the spring tension contributing to load (sliding friction is a function of the how slippery the surfaces are -coefficient of friction- multiplied by the force pressing the objects together). If the dog tooth material was too soft, but the mechanism was sound, you should see a mushrooming of the dog face where it met the ratchet tooth.
Stronger dog material can be useful in less optimal mechanisms. If you look at some of the aftermarket bridges with dual dogs, they had to go through some gyrations to fit the second dog without requiring the customer to grind out a new pocket on the sideplate. Those dog-leg shaped dogs are a compromise in strength that can be somewhat mitigated by going with stronger materials. Not saying that these setups won't work. They just has to be strong enough that something else fails first. Every component will eventually fail with enough load. You just don't want your customization to be the new weakest link.
I would be curious to see photos of worn brass dogs on Jigmasters with stainless sleeves.
-J
I also would like to see these photo`s of worn parts !!!
I'd like to get to use a reel enough to get some worn dog pix!!!!!
Quote from: mhc on July 24, 2022, 04:18:46 AMQuote from: ez2cdave on July 22, 2022, 09:49:28 PMQuote from: Gfish on July 22, 2022, 08:48:39 PMI buy from both makers and the only determining factor is availability. Haven't noticed any performance differences. One thing though, best to get stainless dogs to go with a SS gear sleeve, the brass can get chewed-on.
Where did you find Stainless Dogs for the Jigmaster ? Neither Cortez nor PRO Challenger ( except for the double-dog Bridge ) make Dogs for the Jigmaster.
I can see how the Stainless Steel teeth on a Sleeve could cause higher wear on a Brass Dog.
Tight lines !
Dave F.
Keta used to supply us with stainless dogs for a lot of the Penn reels, including stock jigmasters. He started around 2012 but I don't think he has access to water cutter anymore.
Mike
Thanks, I'll try to contact him !
Tight Lines !
Dave F.
I might have some Jigmaster dogs but I have to dig for them. The water cutter built a major CNC shop and has a big long term contract wita a major e-car manufacture and does not have time. He hasn't gone fishing for 2 years too.
Quote from: Keta on July 26, 2022, 01:42:09 AMI might have some Jigmaster dogs but I have to dig for them. The water cutter built a major CNC shop and has a big long term contract wita a major e-car manufacture and does not have time. He hasn't gone fishing for 2 years too.
If you can find them, that would be great.
Tight Lines !
Dave F.
both good products. you'll do fine with either.