I need someone who already has one of my 113H insert drag kits, who is interested in testing out a new set of carbon fiber washers. Im testing out a new material similar to whats used in the brakes of Formula One cars and airliners. Looks pretty promising from my initial tests, and I have one set of washers to fit one of my insert kits available.
Im looking for someone who already has one of my 113H insert kits, and who uses their reel pretty hard. Ill send you the washers for no charge, I just want feedback on how they perform compared to the washers included in the kit.
Wow, that sounds very intetesting, keeping an eye on this
I have 6 reels running with your insert on a charter boat. That would be the test.
Here is the material
Wow! :o
Adam - what is the material? A carbon/aramid weave perhaps :-\
It looks like Everol and Accurate material.
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on December 25, 2016, 09:52:45 AM
Adam - what is the material? A carbon/aramid weave perhaps :-\
Its 100% carbon fiber with a carbon binder/filler. Typically the binder is a plastic of sorts(e.g. epoxy), but this has been heat treated at approximately 3600 degrees, and all that's left is the carbon fibers and pure carbon.
That means the operating temperature is many times higher than the materials typically used in drag washers.
hi 3sevens just looking at the photo it appears a coarse weave
dont matter i suppose if you wanna stop the car at 260mph
but the fishing reel is a bit different here is a simple test
that will let you know if you are on the right track
make your washers,put the reel back together
reel must be full of line,no knots
suspend the reel 5 or 6 ft above the floor by the fishing line
slowly release the drag tension until the reel begins to fall
dont touch the reel till it reaches the floor
it should be silky smooth and no jerks,it should do it every time you test
10 times dry then 10 times with cals
this is assuming the reel is in 1st class condition
is it worth it? absolutely
will it be better,we dont know
silky smooth startup is the key,
good luck
Quote from: handi2 on December 25, 2016, 02:18:35 PM
It looks like Everol and Accurate material.
Id be interested in taking a look at either if you had any spares.
Quote from: wallacewt on December 25, 2016, 08:16:49 PM
hi 3sevens just looking at the photo it appears a coarse weave
dont matter i suppose if you wanna stop the car at 260mph
but the fishing reel is a bit different here is a simple test
that will let you know if you are on the right track
make your washers,put the reel back together
reel must be full of line,no knots
suspend the reel 5 or 6 ft above the floor by the fishing line
slowly release the drag tension until the reel begins to fall
dont touch the reel till it reaches the floor
it should be silky smooth and no jerks,it should do it every time you test
10 times dry then 10 times with cals
this is assuming the reel is in 1st class condition
is it worth it? absolutely
will it be better,we dont know
silky smooth startup is the key,
good luck
Ill leave the majority of testing and final verdict to others who have far more experience in such than I do. That being said, I have never tested a drag(including any of my kits or any factory reels) that allowed line to come off so slowly while still being smooth as these washers.
I will test them with Cal's but I expect they will perform better without due to their nature. Im a firm believer in Cal's for the typical ht100 style drag washers, but this is nothing like those. And the grease would be a factor that affects how these respond to temperature changes. Whats the point in using a grease thats only good for 300-400 degrees when the rest of the system can safely sustain 4-5 times that.
Quote from: handi2 on December 25, 2016, 02:18:35 PM
It looks like Everol and Accurate Duel material.
It does, but it is not.
.
Adam, the washers arrived today, I will give them a shot as soon as I get a chance.
When I first opened the package, I thought those were the same as the ones I already had
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20161227_170513.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20161227_170513.jpg.html)
They feel much smoother, I'm glad they're not the same as the ones on the left, those didn't do too good in the reel.
I will keep you posted.
Sal
Adam this is what I found today.
I used a Cortez built 113H with your Insert and Alan Chui's internals.
With the greased Carbontex 20lbs was smooth and tightening the drag star was easy. I use a Delrin washer under the star. To get 25+lbs the drag was still smooth but tightening the star was getting to be uncomfortable.
With the new carbon washers 20lbs was slippery smooth and the star tension was the same. One half turn or less the drag jumped to 35lbs and was still smooth. The star tension was less.
I'm guessing the new washers don't compress as much as the softer greased Carbontex.
This was just a simple test done by having a drag scale secured in a vise and pulling on the reel.
Quote from: handi2 on December 28, 2016, 09:46:19 PM
Adam this is what I found today.
I used a Cortez built 113H with your Insert and Alan Chui's internals.
With the greased Carbontex 20lbs was smooth and tightening the drag star was easy. I use a Delrin washer under the star. To get 25+lbs the drag was still smooth but tightening the star was getting to be uncomfortable.
With the new carbon washers 20lbs was slippery smooth and the star tension was the same. One half turn or less the drag jumped to 35lbs and was still smooth. The star tension was less.
I'm guessing the new washers don't compress as much as the softer greased Carbontex.
This was just a simple test done by having a drag scale secured in a vise and pulling on the reel.
Hmmm...
This sounds promising.
I think these will perform better ungreased.
John
Quote from: Alto Mare on December 28, 2016, 03:09:49 PM
Hello Adam, I just got done the test and I'm sorry to say, the latest washers failed.
Start up was great, it kept 5lbs consistent, up to 20lbs those felt the smoothest I've ever felt and still consistent.
Here is what got me that point:
Increasing from 20lbs it required some effort turning the star.
Turning it just 1/16 got me up to 30lbs, the reel still felt smooth.
Turning another 1/16 got me up to around 38lbs and the plate started to heat up the same way as other previous kits did.
I put the heat senser on it and got 95 degree, I believe on my other tests I got very close to it, maybe 98 degree.
I decided to see if the upper drag at 38lbs would hold up and also check if the temperature would increase, so I started pulling and retrieving.
I wanted to get go 40 pulls, but unfortunately was only able to get it to 10, that's when the drags dropped to 5lbs.
I opened the reel up and here is what I got:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20161228_093709.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20161228_093709.jpg.html)
First washer at the bottom got spared, most disitegrated.
The reel used is the exact same reel with same setup that generated over 50lbs on your other previous washers.
My take on these, I do not like them. There is a possibility those would fail also on smaller reels, as the Jigmaster.
I recommend for you to walk away from these.
See what others come up with their test and take it from there.
Sorry Adam, I was hoping they would do better for you.
Sal
.
The performance is these looks promising so far, and especially how smooth they are under load. I was concerned about the structural integrity of these because of the coarse weave of the carbon fiber. With a failure like Sal's, these are not ready for production. But I think Im headed in the right direction with this idea and work on addressing the strength.
Quote from: Three se7ens on December 29, 2016, 01:42:50 AM
The performance is these looks promising so far, and especially how smooth they are under load. I was concerned about the structural integrity of these because of the coarse weave of the carbon fiber. With a failure like Sal's, these are not ready for production. But I think Im headed in the right direction with this idea and work on addressing the strength.
Bravo!
Quote from: Three se7ens on December 29, 2016, 01:42:50 AM
... But I think Im headed in the right direction with this idea and work on addressing the strength.
that the actitude amigo, keep going...and you will get there
Quote from: Three se7ens on December 29, 2016, 01:42:50 AM
The performance is these looks promising so far, and especially how smooth they are under load. I was concerned about the structural integrity of these because of the coarse weave of the carbon fiber. With a failure like Sal's, these are not ready for production. But I think Im headed in the right direction with this idea and work on addressing the strength.
Adam, on my message to you I said for you to walk away from these, I meant for you to do so at this stage.
I didn't want you to invest too much money in those.
You are absolutely correct on performance, as I've mentioned earlier these washers are the smoothest I've ever tried.
The challenge now would be trying keeping them together while at high drag range.
Sal
Quote from: Alto Mare on December 29, 2016, 02:50:57 AM
Quote from: Three se7ens on December 29, 2016, 01:42:50 AM
The performance is these looks promising so far, and especially how smooth they are under load. I was concerned about the structural integrity of these because of the coarse weave of the carbon fiber. With a failure like Sal's, these are not ready for production. But I think Im headed in the right direction with this idea and work on addressing the strength.
Adam, on my message to you I said for you to walk away from these, I meant for you to do so at this stage.
I didn't want you to invest too much money in those.
You are absolutely correct on performance, as I've mentioned earlier these washers are the smoothest I've ever tried.
The challenge now would be trying keeping them together while at high drag range.
Sal
I didnt have much money into it, and I still have a 6" x 8" piece of a really neat material to play with. I have some ideas, but I dont want to clutter this thread.
What got me was how the drag was still smooth while slipping so slowly that you can barely see the spool move. Startup was practically non-existant. Theoretically, the friction should increase as the temperature increases, until you get to around 1200 degrees, where it will start to stabilize. So long runs that would glaze(and permanently damage) traditional drag materials would be a non-issue unless there was a mechanical failure.
Btw, that is one of the most spectacular drag failures Ive ever seen. How did the metal parts fare?
My supplier is looking into getting me a sample of another version of this material thats much better suited to complex shapes. Its specifically designed to address the issues Sal saw with the woven fibers coming apart.
a large single washer glued in may work
like tld 25
Quote from: Three se7ens on December 29, 2016, 04:00:38 AM
Btw, that is one of the most spectacular drag failures Ive ever seen. How did the metal parts fare?
I've seen it before on some others that were just as brittle, the metal washers look the same as when I put them in.
This test didn't take much force, I actually had a hard time taking it to 38lbs.
Keep in mind I've tested your previous washers to over 50lbs with no issues.
Star on these almost locks up at 20lbs, I could use one finger on the star on some other washers and still get 40+ lbs.
With that said, these latest are the smoothest washers I've ever tried and don't blame you for wanting to explore further, that's how good things happen.
Thank you Adam for your hard work, I know it isn't easy.
Your effort is really appreciated and have no doubts you will come up with something amazingfor all of us to enjoy.
Sal
After taking mine out I did break one when i bent it just a little. Then it started to crumble. The material looks like it was meant to be used with epoxy in construction of parts.
It is not flexible at all. But it is very smooth.
Interesting...
Assuming that the weave being pulled apart can be resolved...
Some manufacturers of thrust bearing/ clutch materials provide a pressure (PSI), velocity (SFM) and combo (PV) rating for the various materials. The requirements for a given reel can be measured / calculated fairly easily. When playing with some reel drag designs, I made a spreadsheet (not documented well enough to share, but preserving the formulas).
I would suspect that the CF composites probably have a pressure rating. If so we can calculate the requirement for a given reel/drag setting, and see if the supplier has a suitable alternative worth testing.
Less likely that there is a velocity rating, but if there is, the requirement can be easily calculated as well.
The other potential factors (after dealing with weave failure) that I can think of are lateral (radial?) failure from the ears striking the sides of the insert ( seems unlikely), or uneven pressure on the surfaces. An interesting test would be to set/ release the drag a couple times, disassemble the reel before using the drag and see if the CF is already damaged.
Or you can just try some other materials and see if they work :) :) :). Could be faster and more effective...
Something with some compressibility would be nice, as these star drag setups are not very exact/level- but not sure if this is available with materials as stiff/ brittle as high temp resins and pure carbon fibers.
One other thought: If these materials were supported to be used in a friction clutch type environment, it might be assumed that they would affixed to a backing plate, and not free floating. This might also address the unweaving problem. Maybe something else to ask the supplier? Probably too much of a pain/expense to sandwich around a thin stainless washer with a high temp adhesive...
If doing the P or V calculations provides some value, PM me. I would be happy to assist.
Sal...it looks like you tested these dry. I wonder if they'd hold together greased? 8)
Quote from: mo65 on December 29, 2016, 10:10:57 PM
Sal...it looks like you tested these dry. I wonder if they'd hold together greased? 8)
Yes I did Mo, they would have failed just the same with grease. I belive Keith tested his with grease and was able to move his star a little more than me, but not by much.
Quote from: jurelometer on December 29, 2016, 08:05:30 PM
Interesting...
I would suspect that the CF composites probably have a pressure rating. If so we can calculate the requirement for a given reel/drag setting, and see if the supplier has a suitable alternative worth testing.
Less likely that there is a velocity rating, but if there is, the requirement can be easily calculated as well.
The other potential factors (after dealing with weave failure) that I can think of are lateral (radial?) failure from the ears striking the sides of the insert ( seems unlikely), or uneven pressure on the surfaces. An interesting test would be to set/ release the drag a couple times, disassemble the reel before using the drag and see if the CF is already damaged.
Dave, ears did fail on these.
Washers appeared to be intact, when I removed the metal keyed washers the carbon fiber washers came out in pieces.
The material is brittle, if you move it gently up and down a few times it will fall apart in pieces.
Let me throw out something. How about coating the sheet with fiberglass epoxy? The stuff used to coat fiberglass cloth when making fiberglass repairs. Dominick
Dominick, that resin can't take high temperatures. I've seen it blister & crack just from the sun. Rudy
Quote from: Dominick on December 29, 2016, 11:15:45 PM
Let me throw out something. How about coating the sheet with fiberglass epoxy? The stuff used to coat fiberglass cloth when making fiberglass repairs. Dominick
Epoxy is only one of 3 main types of resin used in building boats. Polyester is the most common, and vinyl ester and epoxy are typically only seen on higher end hulls. None of which are any good above 200 degrees, except a small number of specialized and very expensive epoxies. I keep one such epoxy for molding carbon fiber parts, and it is stable to around 300 degrees. But even that gets very soft by 200 degrees. Above 300 degrees, the mechanical properties permanently degrade. Further, composites layed up with any resin in a boat building or molding manner make very poor drag washers.
All that aside, the layered carbon fiber washers, such as Penn's HT100, carbontex, etc all suffer the same temperature limitation because of the molded fiberglass core and adhesive used to bond the carbon fiber outer layers. I want to eliminate those entirely, and have a homogeneous meterial that can handle the extreme conditions these tweaked reels put their drags through.
I've been following this thread with interest. I think the failure was because there was nothing left to hold things together after the high-temperature treatment destroyed the structural integrity of the epoxy, or whatever was holding the carbon fibers together. They may do great with friction and have great tensile strength and a favorable modulus of elasticity, but no inherent structural strength other than that, and once the ears started to fray and flex the whole thing went to hell in a handbasket.
Also, ceramics are inherently temperature-stable; they were what the heat tiles on the shuttle were made of to stand up to the high temperatures of re-entry. Has anyone ever considered trying a ceramic as a drag material? Like a thin ceramic wafer with a rough surface? Just thinking out loud here.
I have a friend that has been a NASA chemist for 30 years and has developed a lot of the high-temperature composites used on the Space Shuttle. I will ask him to give an opinion; he's technically a "materials scientist" with a PhD in Organic Chemistry. Stay tuned. I'll see if I can get him on the phone tomorrow.
Sid
Quote from: sdlehr on December 30, 2016, 03:45:21 AM
I've been following this thread with interest. I think the failure was because there was nothing left to hold things together after the high-temperature treatment destroyed the structural integrity of the epoxy, or whatever was holding the carbon fibers together. They may do great with friction and have great tensile strength and a favorable modulus of elasticity, but no inherent structural strength other than that, and once the ears started to fray and flex the whole thing went to hell in a handbasket.
Also, ceramics are inherently temperature-stable; they were what the heat tiles on the shuttle were made of to stand up to the high temperatures of re-entry. Has anyone ever considered trying a ceramic as a drag material? Like a thin ceramic wafer with a rough surface? Just thinking out loud here.
I have a friend that has been a NASA chemist for 30 years and has developed a lot of the high-temperature composites used on the Space Shuttle. I will ask him to give an opinion; he's technically a "materials scientist" with a PhD in Organic Chemistry. Stay tuned. I'll see if I can get him on the phone tomorrow.
Sid
I bet your friend will be familiar with the material Im using here. One of the early applications was the wings of the space shuttle. You may have misunderstood the resin/epoxy tangent earlier, but there is no epoxy in this material.
I see several different prepreg carbon fiber sheets that spec out at 500-700F max continous operating temp. Probably need pretty exact temp control for proper curing.
It just seems tough to me to rely on a dry fiber weave to hold together when the force on the washer ears and faces are pulling it apart.
There are woven carbon fiber friction clutches out there, so there might be some way to make this work. But it might end up requiring bonding the fiber to a backing of some kind.
On a side note: Something else to consider is the temp limit of the other components in the neighborhood. For example, I see stainless ball bearing specs published around 250F.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained...
I agree with you Dave.
I had the opportunity to test many carbon fiber washers, a lot happens behind the scene that most don't get to see.
All without some type of reinforcement sandwiched in between to help hold the weaved carbon fiber failed.
I also had some with some type of membrane fail, weather fiberglass or cloth.
I can't see how these fibers would hold together without some type of epoxy on the inside to hold everything in place, but hoping you guys come up with something. :-\
There is lots of force generated on these.
Sal