I was in the store looking at rods this weekend. These were not super fancy ones. Or fancy at all really, all were under 50. I tend to test actions by grabbing a rod with 2 fingers, just below the tip and pulling down. What was interesting is that when you do so, some rods tend to wanna twist in hand while bent, others don't. One actually turned about 120 degrees in my hand when doing so. I went home and tried this on some of my slightly nicer rods, and they didn't twist. Is this a sign that the makers of the ones I looked at in the store failed to line the hardware up with the spine on the blank?
Furthermore how does one properly locate/identify the "spine" on a blank?
I put the butt on the ground and lay the tip on my right fingers, with my left hand I put a flex in the rod and spin it a bit with my right hand. It should snap back to it's natural bend.
It wouldn't surprise me if cheaper rods don't find the spine at all but it's so simple to do I don't understand not doing it. I've even heard people say it doesn't matter but I always do it
It does matter but you set the spline different (just the opposite) for spinning or casting configurations. There are plenty of examples on YouTube showing how to determine and place the spline. Most makers of cheap rods do not take the time to find and position the spline. Also, it is near impossible to locate a spline once the guides, and especially the handle are intact. The handle will usually keep it from rolling into the correct position.
Just add to Tom`s post if it is a 2 piece pull it apart and check , the top section is heart of the stick.
I like to hold the stick at the front grip and thump the bottom of the stick just ahead of the front grip.
There is a harmonic vibration that i look for . When you go through the rack of the same stick you feel one that is just rite or the best of the bunch.
Interesting stuff. So am I correct in thinking that where the blank rolls to is the spine? Or is that natural point 180° away from the actual spine? That may be a dumb question but I'm trying to grasp the concept.
I have a cheapo rod that no longer gets used as the quality of my collection has increased. I always noticed the rod bent a bit to the left on an otherwise straight cast. I'm now thinking its related.
I guess to clarify the question, the spine defines the natural bend direction, or the opposite of it?
Wrap a piece of masking tape around the blank, bend and find spine and mark it on the tape. Align reel seat and guides along that line for a spinning rod and 180 of the mark for a conventional.
what about an old Conolon (Live Fiber?)... sloppy practice build -- not, restoration
looking for excuses to keep original brass ferrule as is (otherwise, stripped blank)
would the small male half interfere w/ sp[L?]ining the tip section, significantly?
should I roll on table edge, so only blank right above ferrule makes contact & brass is in the air?
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 08, 2021, 07:29:43 PM
Interesting stuff. So am I correct in thinking that where the blank rolls to is the spine? Or is that natural point 180° away from the actual spine? That may be a dumb question but I'm trying to grasp the concept.
I have a cheapo rod that no longer gets used as the quality of my collection has increased. I always noticed the rod bent a bit to the left on an otherwise straight cast. I'm now thinking its related.
I guess to clarify the question, the spine defines the natural bend direction, or the opposite of it?
The spine always goes on the bottom. For a spinner, the eyes and seat are aligned with the spine, for a conventionally wrapped conventional (see what I did there?) the eyes and seat are 180 degrees from the spline.
As posted above, once a rod is wrapped there are things that muddy the waters and makes it very hard. The rods you were messing with may have a flat spot on the but or a hard line through a cork grip that may imact how the rod rolls more than the spine.
Ronald Jones
Ronald Jones
Lets see if this helps , pictures of two different rod tops . first picture is the top section at rest . the second picture is pushing down in the middle and the spline is on the bottom , and the guides are 90 degrees from the spline .
Third picture is another top section , bent , spine on the bottom and the guides are 180 degrees . Some spines are more pronounced than others , when i push on the middle the guides pop up with no trouble. These were the best 2 of about 15 stick on clearance for 15 bucks, Tsunami shock waves.
A lot of wisdom about spine of blanks is not always correct, and the way I have found to explain this to clients is as follows:
Imagine a piece of paper wrapped around a pencil, exactly 5 times, such that everywhere except the very point of precise overlap has 5 layers of paper. At the point of overlap there are 6 layers - this is the spine. So, because it has 6 layers it is marginally stiffer in that exact plane than the rest of the blank. So, having determined the spine of a blank with the rolling method, you are actually finding the point opposite to the stiff/spine side. Having marked this, you now have decisions to make. #
There is conventional wisdom about spine position on spinning and conventional rods, but the opposite is equally true and valid, depending on the exact action desired by the client. Back in the days when my wife and I did line class boat fishing, she would prefer a slightly softer action to the rod, while on the same blank I would prefer a slightly stiffer action, and as such we would build both rods on opposite sides of the spine.
In surf rods for clients, I have often found that using the soft side as the favoured side during the loading phase, allows less powerful anglers to get more power into the rod, because it is slightly softer, while more powerful people can load the rod easily with the spine on the harder side.
Basically, at the end of the day, any blank can be built in just 2 positions, and 358 degrees of wrong positions. A classic case was a client that came in to have 6 client rods refurbished, and one was marked with red electricians tape around the handle - with a note saying this one was 'his', as it was so 'sweet' to cast. On stripping all the rods down and checking, just that 1 out of the 6 had been built either of the 2 planes of the spine, the others were all over the place. Phoned him up and asked if he wanted the other 5 corrected with new reel seats, and now he has 6 'sweet' rods.
Great explanation Jeri. I like that paper and pencil analogy. Dominick
Here is a very old video of a very young Gary Loomis. A good demo of spine finding at the beginning.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HzxDEzY3oOk (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HzxDEzY3oOk)
A couple more personal observations from my limited experience::
1. On a multi-piece blank, spine each piece separately, and then spine the whole assembled blank withe the individual spines aligned. If the spine moved, starting with just the top two pieces assembled, rotate the bottom pice until the assembled spine aligns with the top piece spine. Repeat for remaining sections. This will favor the tip section, and therefore the casting (vs. fish fighting) effect of spine alignment..
2. On thin walled, light whippy blanks (like fly blanks), there is often a secondary spine, so it can get confusing. Just choose the more dominant spine.
3. For some applications the spine can really matter, especially if it is prominent enough. Jeri's surfacasters sound like one good example. For most general purpose freshwater usage, not so much. Think about how often you are casting /flipping, or playing a fish with the line off angle from the centerline of guide placement.
It does not cost much to spine a blank properly, and the process could easily be automated, so if it made a big enough difference, spine aligning would be a more common practice on factory rods.
But in the end, it never hurts to build on the spine, so why not?
4. The older, cheaper, or heavier/stiffer the blank, the more likely it will have a more prominent spine.
5. A fun science experiment would be to test with a scale, and see how much the load actually differed bent on both sides of the spine and 90 degrees using both light casting and full useful load (90 degree bend), and then repeat after adding guides in the proper spined location. Just requires a flat smooth surface, a c-clamp, masking tape, sharpie, and a pull scale.
---
Regarding the question of spine finding with a stamped brass male ferrule:
Some of those old ferrules are not exactly round, so it might be a bit more difficult to find the spine. Your plan of using a table edge to avoid the ferrule seems like a good idea to me.
-J
This is turning into a great thread, and I'm learning a lot. As usual.
Out of curiosity I went and googled the rod that was the biggest offender. And I was surprised to find its an $80 rod! So there were a bunch of $30 rods on the rack that got it right. But the $80 one got it wrong. And now I'm annoyed.
Would there be any benefit to having the 2 spines of a 2 piece rod 180° apart from each other?
::) Next time you are in isle 4 , take the top of one stick and try it base of the other stick . You can build a rod before you buy it !!!
A decade or two ago there were some that thought if you put the guides on a spinning blank on the convex side it would eventually straighten the rod out. That will never happen with a graphite blank because of the way the sheets are wrapped on the mandrel. I tried that concept on a couple of my first builds. They were fairly light compared to many rods out there, 6-12# sticks. I hated the way they acted. They always wanted to twist with a light load and they never straightened out. I have since then built all my under reel rods with the guides on the inner/concave side.
A blank that is crooked adds another dimension to the spine thing. Bent sections were common in the early days of rolling rods before the manufacturers worked out the kinks. Today, the really cheap Chinese blanks often have a bent tip section. The butt sections seem more likely to be straight. I think it is caused by the pencil wrapper being tighter on one side than the other. It may be shoddy workmanship, poor quality control or sending the bent blanks to the discount suppliers. The spine will definitely follow an innate bend. Like Tommy, I wrap them so the rod bends down at the tip. It amplifies the bend from the lure hanging off the end of the rod but does not look or act weird.
Quote from: Jeri on February 08, 2021, 10:58:56 PM
Basically, at the end of the day, any blank can be built in just 2 positions, and 358 degrees of wrong positions.
358* of wrong positions. haha.
that made me recall, that what I told to one of my friends that asked me if he can use a spinning reel on a casting rod (with regular reelseat not trigger style), he was anxious to use the reel but didnt have proper light spinning rod for it but one of this casting rods have the 1st and 2nd guide big enough to dont stop that much the line coming from a spinning reel, he was worried to break the rod since now it will be bending 180* contrary of its normal use, I told him that considering most of the factory rods are not build on the spine I dont know for sure if the rod will be bending 180* contrary to its spine, maybe only 130* or 35* who knows, so I would used it with no worries until buying a proper spinning rod (that mostly wont be build on the spine either).
but what do I know.
I'd say virtually all cheap rods aren't built over or under the spine. They're built however the factory worker in China picked up the blank and jammed a reel seat on the bottom.
Speaking more broadly... personally I'm not going to obsess over the minutiae of the performance of a $40 stick. There's a reason it's $40. High performance comes with a high performance price tag.
I used to build a lot of golf clubs and I "spined" my steel and graphite shafts too. I have a device that is basically two bearings mounted in a steel tube about 6 inches long. You stick the butt in it, then take a loose bearing and hold it on the tip applying pressure downwards, which in turn makes the shaft "jump" to the neutral position. Works well on fishing rods too, and I saw that Mudhole was selling them. Makes it easy. Or you could just put the tip on the floor and bend it and let it roll in your hand, same difference.
the way I learned to find the spine is: hang a towel or? over the side a a table, tie about 1/2 oz sinker to the butt. take the tip in one hand and place the midsection over the table so the table is about 1/2 way up, then rotate the blank slowly until you feel it jump a little, that's the spine. if it's for a spinning rod, place your guides on the spine, for a conventional , 180 degrees opposite.
I hope this isn't too long since the last post to comment but I have a rod that is build 'on the spine' (not spline) - a longish 12-20lb rod. I almost love it since it has caught a lot of fish using artificial lures on deep wrecks but - and here's the rub - when the blank is bent with a fish on, it tries to roll sideways. This is because, of course, the blank is softer 'off the spine'. It is very irritating, but not so bad that I would re-wrap it.
It is exactly (well, with a bit if exaggeration) like bending a length of 2x4" timber - it bends easier one way than the other. If you try to bend the 4" way, it will try to roll round and bend the 2" way.
Whilst that rod is a pain, and my own fault for not checking before buying, it would be an impossible problem on a much heavier rod. I can't imagine the issue of an 80lb chair rod trying to twist when being worked hard on a fish, or a 50-80 stand-up stick doing likewise.
I do now check boat rods before purchase to ensure they wont try to roll over when in a fighting curve.
Beachcasters are a different matter - if the rings are 'on the spine', casting is all awry as the rod will twist during the cast and won't follow the correct path through the air for maximum distance.
Very interesting thread. I have 2 questions - (1) does the spine matter as much in spiral wrapped rods?, (2) in some rods where I can see the "cloth", the cloth seems to be wrapped spirally. Would that affect the spine?
Quote from: UKChris1 on June 04, 2021, 11:06:35 AM
I hope this isn't too long since the last post to comment
I love seeing my threads brought back to life, and this was an especially fun one. So thank you.
QuoteBeachcasters are a different matter - if the rings are 'on the spine', casting is all awry as the rod will twist during the cast and won't follow the correct path through the air for maximum distance.
Forgive me but I'm unsure what you're saying here. If possible can you rephrase it?
Quote from: smnaguwa on June 04, 2021, 12:42:56 PM
Very interesting thread. I have 2 questions - (1) does the spine matter as much in spiral wrapped rods?, (2) in some rods where I can see the "cloth", the cloth seems to be wrapped spirally. Would that affect the spine?
1. (Assuming you are referring to spiral wrapped guides here) On a spiral wrap, the top part of the rod (before the transition) is doing the bulk of the work affected by load on the guides. So the effect of spine alignment for spirals wrapped rods should be pretty much the same as any other other guide-on-the-inside-of-the-curve build, including spinning and fly rods. These rods will be less affected by spine misalignment when fighting/winding, but the effect on casting will be more or less the same as guide on top.
2. The closer the fibers are to parallel to the length, the stiffer the overlap section (probably more pronounced spine). But the more diagonal fibers are usually used in the outermost flags, so what you see on the outside will not be indicative of what is underneath. A rod made mostly out of diagonal fibers would be a super noodle, and is probably pretty uncommon. BUT...
I have read that quality control has the main influence on how prominent the spine is, and this makes sense. If you want to crank out lots of rods quickly, cut your flags so that they have lots of overlap, and don't worry about the overlaps stacking up over each other layer on top of layer. As long as the prepreg is rich enough in resin, it will come put looking nice and round with a bit of sanding. :)
BTW: I think that rod companies don't typically use special tape or cloth to get those diagonals. They just cut the flags out of the prepreg at a greater angle.
-J.
After rolling and curing the blank then removing the mandrel it is sanded to make the outside diameter uniform in all directions. There is a rotating sanding machine for that. The sanding will chamfer the edge of the last flag.
I do not know the impact of sanding on the spline but it seems logical that there would be one.
Quote from: UKChris1 on June 04, 2021, 11:06:35 AM
Beachcasters are a different matter - if the rings are 'on the spine', casting is all awry as the rod will twist during the cast and won't follow the correct path through the air for maximum distance.
I've built beach casters both for multipliers and fixed spool (spinners), both at 0 degrees and 180 degrees to the spine, and none of the 4 variations have had any casting problems with either uni-directional styles of casting (Hatteras or OTG) of full pendulum. Never found any twisting or torque loading aspect affecting the casts. But then as mentioned previously we mostly build on very predominant 'J' curve blanks. Didn't find any twisting or torque component even when we built a spiral wrapped multiplier beachcaster.
J, thanks for the tutorial.
Jerry, thanks for that. My casting isn't good enough to detect difference but my mate, who can cast across the English Channel to fish the beaches of France (honest! :D), says he can detect the effect on his casting if a rod is built with rings aligned to the 'firm' side.
JasonGotaPenn, when he casts well (full pendulum) with a rod where the rings are aligned on the soft side, the rod loads up under power and curves around him before unwinding to propel the lead where he's aimed it. When the rings are not so aligned, he says he can feel the rod try to twist in his hands at the moment of full power as it tries to bend along the softest line. In the worst cases, there is a kick that ought not be there.
It is exactly the effect I detect in my 12=20 boat rod when there is a fish on, but more dramatic given the forces involved in sending 6oz of lead more than 200 yards when beachcasting.
But, as I say, I can't cast well enough to detect that; I'm happy just to reach to water.
Quote from: UKChris1 on June 06, 2021, 02:21:46 PM
Jerry, thanks for that. My casting isn't good enough to detect difference but my mate, who can cast across the English Channel to fish the beaches of France (honest! :D), says he can detect the effect on his casting if a rod is built with rings aligned to the 'firm' side.
Is it just a case of being able to detect the slightly stiffer action, which obviously does not suit his preferred casting style/action? We have plenty of folks that prefer their rods built on the 'firm' side to enable that more aggressive power stroke, rather than the more forgiving 'soft' side. The loading action of rods in very powerful casting styles is different again to more softer styles, and this is where personal preferences of different casters will be different. No one build system suits all people, generalisations should be avoided, or explored and disproved.
The only time I have detected any serious amount of 'twisting in the cast', has been on rods not built on either of the prime axes, and that has come from both soft styles and full pendulum; and they were factory built rods, where spine consideration is minimal.
I know reporting other people's preferences is fraught with the potential for misunderstanding but my casting mate does truly sort out the exact firmness he prefers (and his beach rods are far stiffer than mine) and he is very fussy in that respect.
Over the years, he has been through many (a bit like me and my stand-up rod choices :D) and I guess never quite finding perfection. I can only say that he would reject a rod that wasn't built on the soft side, though to me that rod would be poker-stiff. Soft being a relative term.
The ideal of course is a rod where the wrap of the cloth on the mandrel is so well calculated that there is no hard and soft sides, but that is not so easy to achieve.
I couldn't use any of his rods properly as I lacked the skill to really bend them in a cast. He made it look effortless.
There was a plus side though. He said his rods softened after a lot of use - I think some fly rods are said to do the same - and he sold a couple on to me ;D
Indeed, people do have their own preferences and I try not to be dogmatic (mostly). What suits me might not be for you, and vice versa.
Cheers
There's so much variation in how we fish and what we target, that there's very few right or wrong answers. Also while there are a solid # of commercial fishermen on here, many of us are doing it for the sheer joy of it. I know I personally don't make all that much effort to fish in the most efficient way possible, I fish in a way that's fun, to me. Of course catching and eating fish is the most fun part, so some of my decisions are results-driven, but fun is still the focus.
Jeri has likely built more rods this month than I've built in my life. I tend to trust his analysis.
This may be a reflection of me actually being almost as dumb as I sound, but I'm still a tad unclear on the soft vs hard side thing, even though it's been explained before. So please excuse the dumb question. If I'm building a spinning rod, and I bend a blank then roll it til it finds the natural spot it wants to snap to, if I put my guides on the inside of that curve, am I building on the soft or hard side? (For spinning reel setup).
Forgive me for being so dense.
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on June 08, 2021, 01:22:06 PM
There's so much variation in how we fish and what we target, that there's very few right or wrong answers. Also while there are a solid # of commercial fishermen on here, many of us are doing it for the sheer joy of it. I know I personally don't make all that much effort to fish in the most efficient way possible, I fish in a way that's fun, to me. Of course catching and eating fish is the most fun part, so some of my decisions are results-driven, but fun is still the focus.
Jeri has likely built more rods this month than I've built in my life. I tend to trust his analysis.
This may be a reflection of me actually being almost as dumb as I sound, but I'm still a tad unclear on the soft vs hard side thing, even though it's been explained before. So please excuse the dumb question. If I'm building a spinning rod, and I bend a blank then roll it til it finds the natural spot it wants to snap to, if I put my guides on the inside of that curve, am I building on the soft or hard side? (For spinning reel setup).
Forgive me for being so dense.
There is no right or wrong way to build a spinning rod or a casting rod - that is my personal take; based on the fact that different people desire different action/response from the blank/rod in their hand. So, whether you build on the soft (inside the curve) or hard (outside the curve) makes little difference apart from how the rod will react. The reaction difference being during casting and fighting fish or moving a lure.
It more comes down to which is the preferred reaction desired for your individual fishing style. We build long surf rods for ladies, with a softer bias in the casting action, as they are less 'physical' during their casting operations, so gain comfort and ease in loading the rod. As those same ladies develop and become more proficient in their casting technique, we do then occasionally build them a rod with a stiffer bias, as they are then less intimidated by the small power increase. Menfolk, always seem to want the stronger/stiffer option - machismo? Yet, they will comment on how smooth and easy the same rod built with the softer bias is, and can cast easier for the same distance.
The same requirements come into play when fighting fish, species with softer mouths are best accommodated with rods designed to suit that with the soft bias priority to fighting, yet species with hard mouths and more likely sound hook holds require the harder bias towards the fish, as the rod appears to have more backbone or power.
So, there is no right or wrong, just people's differing preferences.
Quote from: Jeri on June 09, 2021, 07:39:06 AM
There is no right or wrong way to build a spinning rod or a casting rod - that is my personal take; .........................So, there is no right or wrong, just people's differing preferences.
thats what I love about Rod building, you practically can build your rod as you want, with the components and accessories you chose, etc, asking for advices and follow some basic rules are a must when someone is starting but at the end either you are a rookie or seasoned rodsmither the final goal is to be happy with your build when is built for you personal use, specially if you use the rod for recreation purposes and not for Tournaments.
guide spacing formulas are just recommendations but you can add or use less than that, acid wrapping have 65 wrong ways to do it but also 832 correct ways depending on the builder, etc.