So which one would you take? The seemingly more robust Gray Sea Wonder Series or the less complicated design of the Maroon? What are the pros and cons to you with each model? Thanks...and Merry Christmas!
Yeah, same question. The Grey series are the older models, right?
Quote from: Gfish on December 14, 2021, 02:17:17 AM
Yeah, same question. The Grey series are the older models, right?
Yes the Gray Series was first.
Quote from: basenjib123 on December 14, 2021, 02:33:55 AM
Quote from: Gfish on December 14, 2021, 02:17:17 AM
Yeah, same question. The Grey series are the older models, right?
Yes the Gray Series was first.
Not by a whole lot, though. The 2070, 80 & 90 were introduced in 1958/59, the 2071, 81 & 91 in 1965. The 2065 was introduced in 1959 & 2064 in 1960 (they're the same reel, just a change in the last number & parts are interchangeable). The 2062 was then introduced in 1963. Many think the 2068, introduced in 1963, was possibly highest quality light/medium size spinning reel ever manufactured in the US.
As far as a light/medium size Shakespeare I would choose the 2068 first & then the 2062 first version. The 2064/65 are still good reels but 2068 & 2062 were improvements & a little higher quality with their worm gear drives. The 2070, 80 & 90 are really high quality reels.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on December 14, 2021, 04:17:30 AM
Quote from: basenjib123 on December 14, 2021, 02:33:55 AM
Quote from: Gfish on December 14, 2021, 02:17:17 AM
Yeah, same question. The Grey series are the older models, right?
Yes the Gray Series was first.
Not by a whole lot, though. The 2070, 80 & 90 were introduced in 1958/59, the 2071, 81 & 91 in 1965. The 2065 was introduced in 1959 & 2064 in 1960 (they're the same reel, just a change in the last number & parts are interchangeable). The 2062 was then introduced in 1963. Many think the 2068, introduced in 1963, was possibly highest quality light/medium size spinning reel ever manufactured in the US.
As far as a light/medium size Shakespeare I would choose the 2068 first & then the 2062 first version. The 2064/65 are still good reels but 2068 & 2062 were improvements & a little higher quality with their worm gear drives. The 2070, 80 & 90 are really high quality reels.
Tommy is absolutely right, IMO —
IF, the reel will be a shelf queen.
However, for a practical matter — as a reel to actually be fished — the only way to get replacement parts is with an additional donor reel. I have some of these, and two of them have busted interior parts.
It is disappointing — since the quality is solid and evident.
Any reel that parts are unavailable for — is worth not much more than 4 bits an ounce.
The old grease inside needs to be cleaned, removed, and relubed with proper modern lubes — before trying to crank the handle and gears. The oscillation mechanism will break apart with old, stiff grease.
Some of these were grey, some maroon, and the Ted Williams models were a brown color.
Excellent reels.
Best,
Fred
Fred's right about parts availability, and that's a shame. I have been able to find a few internal parts, spools, etc., though. It took me 2 years to find a crank handle for a 2064/65 and I've been looking for a crank handle for a 2052 2nd version for three years now with no luck. Parts are tough on those lines but if one finds a well cared for or NIB example it will fish for an awful long time if maintained correctly and regularly.
So, the 2070, 80 & 90 are, or are not, worm gear reels.
Thanks Fred & Tommy, I's waitin for y'all to respond.
I have always wondered about the statement from an extremely noted spin reel reviewer that the worm drive system is the least efficient when
I see that very high quality brands like DAM, ABU,PENN got so much wear from this system.
I know that DAIWA used it , not sure about SHIMANO. don't think MITCHELL ever used it.
Anyhow, I have not seen any very expensive currently made spinners using it now.
If it worked so well for so long, why is it not used anymore???
Greg
I wish I never sold them but I had a huge collection of the Maroon colored reeks. Many of them came with factory manual bails. I sold them on flea bay in the 90's.
The drive system in the Gray Series is more complicated with more parts and a large additional gear. I suppose one could argue that there is less wear and tear on each part in the drive train of the Grays seeing some pressure has been taken off the main gear, etc; By the same token, I can see that being a negative when it comes to parts replacements and a bit more maintenance. In any case I like both series myself.
Quote from: Gfish on December 14, 2021, 07:35:56 PM
So, the 2070, 80 & 90 are, or are not, worm gear reels.
Thanks Fred & Tommy, I's waitin for y'all to respond.
That series has the worm gear system
I'll go with the Maroons. Simpler is better with old stuff, especially when parts are so hard to run down. Both series are tough as a $2 steak, and the chance of busting something on a Maroon that a Gray would've handled is almost non-existent.
That being said, I will take all of either I can get.
Frank
Quote from: basto on December 14, 2021, 08:53:18 PM
I have always wondered about the statement from an extremely noted spin reel reviewer that the worm drive system is the least efficient when
I see that very high quality brands like DAM, ABU,PENN got so much wear from this system.
I know that DAIWA used it , not sure about SHIMANO. don't think MITCHELL ever used it.
Anyhow, I have not seen any very expensive currently made spinners using it now.
If it worked so well for so long, why is it not used anymore???
Greg
Akios has good rep for aftermarket Abu upgrades, doesn't it?
wonder why no one on AT has tried their worm spinner ???
https://www.carolinacastpro.com/products/akios-airloop-r10
Quote from: basto on December 14, 2021, 08:53:18 PM
I have always wondered about the statement from an extremely noted spin reel reviewer that the worm drive system is the least efficient when
I see that very high quality brands like DAM, ABU,PENN got so much wear from this system.
I know that DAIWA used it , not sure about SHIMANO. don't think MITCHELL ever used it.
Anyhow, I have not seen any very expensive currently made spinners using it now.
If it worked so well for so long, why is it not used anymore???
Greg
So I am curious as to who this noted reviewer is? There are pluses and minuses to each of the gearing systems. Some are smoother, some are noisier, some are are stronger, some are quieter, some are less likely to fail, some last longer, etc., etc. There's give and take in each system so individual preference ends up being key in one's decision on which system is best for their uses. I have seen a lot of failures but I have never seen a quality designed and manufactured worm gear & pinion system fail when used as intended, so personally, I prefer the worm gear design for any serious endeavors.
The biggest reason you don't see them used much in today's manufacturing is do to the perception of most new reel purchasers that optimum smoothness means higher quality, which is clearly not the case, and, worm gear drive systems are much more expensive to manufacture. Most reel makers learned this in the mid '80s and switched accordingly to reduce costs and make more profit.
From a mechanical standpoint:
I posted an overview of right angle gear drive styles awhile back. If I see it again, I will post a link to it. If my recollection is correct, the main mechanical design issue that can effect the choice of worm drives in spinners is that since the worm gear has to be located entirely below the main gear, you need more vertical space to fit everything, which means the axis of the spool shaft has to be farther from the rod, or the body extends up the neck more towards the foot. Either way, you will end up with a larger body on the reel with the center of mass farther from the rod.
I would guess that on more modern reels with larger gear ratios and larger teeth, the body size and center of mass issues might make a worm drive reel less desirable.
There is also a difference in lost energy, but I don't remember how important that is. Maybe that is the smoothness that Tommy is referring to.
Most worm drive systems will lock up if you try to turn them backwards. Not sure if that is a plus or minus, or if worm drive spinners use the type of worms that can turn both ways.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on December 15, 2021, 08:57:23 AM
From a mechanical standpoint:
I posted an overview of right angle gear drive styles awhile back. If I see it again, I will post a link to it. If my recollection is correct, the main mechanical design issue that can effect the choice of worm drives in spinners is that since the worm gear has to be located entirely below the main gear, you need more vertical space to fit everything, which means the axis of the spool shaft has to be farther from the rod, or the body extends up the neck more towards the foot. Either way, you will end up with a larger body on the reel with the center of mass farther from the rod.
I would guess that on more modern reels with larger gear ratios and larger teeth, the body size and center of mass issues might make a worm drive reel less desirable.
There is also a difference in lost energy, but I don't remember how important that is. Maybe that is the smoothness that Tommy is referring to.
Most worm drive systems will lock up if you try to turn them backwards. Not sure if that is a plus or minus, or if worm drive spinners use the type of worms that can turn both ways.
-J
Yes, this was discussed thoroughly awhile back. Don't remember exactly when, though.
Worm gear spinners won't lock up when turned backwards unless there's an awful lot of pressure or resistance against the system at that time. I've never had, or seen, one bind up, though, but I suppose it could happen.
;D They don`t lock up , they get harder to turn when you change gear ratios .
But than when the worm is the driver ,it`s a different story .....
The worm gear is not as efficient as bevel gear drives input power wise ........
Tommy
The reviewer I was referring to is Alan Hawk. You can read what he has to say about it in his review of the DAM 5001.
Greg
So I'm I correct that the Gray Series design was an effort to take some of the pressure off the main gear?
I refreshed my memory and need to make a few corrections on what I posted earlier (thanks to Tommy & Joe!).
There are some generalizations about worm drive performance that while accurate, are not nearly as severe in the ratios used in spinning reels. And drive gear theoretical performance is just one aspect in selecting drive gears for a reel design.
Worm gear systems are generally used for reduction, where the power is on the worm side. Also worm gear systems are usually used for high gear ratios (like 40:1). Some tooth shapes will bind when run in reverse in the high ratio parings. At very low gear ratios (like 5:1) worm gear sets are relatively efficient, and do not have the wear issues that the high ratio worm setups do. Here is more than you will ever want to know about worm gears:
https://roymech.org/Useful_Tables/Drive/Worm_Gears.html (https://roymech.org/Useful_Tables/Drive/Worm_Gears.html)
When choosing a gear style for a spinning reel, there are some other considerations that we have not mentioned. The shaft oscillation has to be driven off the main gear, so having the pinion shaft running across the center of the main gear can allow for a simpler oscillation design if the resulting oscillation rate and travel distance is OK. Bevel gears work nice here. Other oscillation rates/travels cannot take advantage of a bevel setup this way.
If you want the reel to easily swap between left and right hand wind, and/or you want the main gear shaft to be supported on both sides, then a bevel gear system won't work. The pinion shaft will be in the way.
Hypoid gears seem to be the best match for the requirements for a spinning reel IMHO. But how well the gears stay aligned, how well the shafts are supported, and the materials and quality control are all probably more important than the gear style.
-J
Quote from: basto on December 14, 2021, 08:53:18 PM
I have always wondered about the statement from an extremely noted spin reel reviewer that the worm drive system is the least efficient when
Greg
Yes, he said that and it is true, but in the same commentary he also said: "One of the biggest advantages of the worm gearing is that the contact area between the drive gear and pinion is much bigger than the contact area between gears in bevel or hypoid systems, and this allows for more force to be applied safely and increases the service life of the setup."
That is what I was getting at when I mentioned: "There are pluses and minuses to each of the gearing systems. Some are smoother, some are noisier, some are are stronger, some are quieter, some are less likely to fail, some last longer, etc., etc. There's give and take in each system so individual preference ends up being key in one's decision on which system is best for their uses. I have seen a lot of failures but I have never seen a quality designed and manufactured worm gear & pinion system fail when used as intended, so personally, I prefer the worm gear design for any serious endeavors.
The biggest reason you don't see them used much in today's manufacturing is do to the perception of most new reel purchasers that optimum smoothness means higher quality, which is clearly not the case, and, worm gear drive systems are much more expensive to manufacture. Most reel makers learned this in the mid '80s and switched accordingly to reduce costs and make more profit."
J (Dave) expressed some very good points above.
Here's an efficiency rating discussion from the same website Dave referenced: https://roymech.org/Useful_Tables/Drive/Gear_Efficiency.html At optimum design efficiency ratios there's really not that much difference between the most used types. I doubt very much that a spinning reel manufacturer would ever go past 5 or 6 to 1
Yes, I would just like to say that my favourite spinners are my two DAM QUICK 3001 and my ABU Cardinal 5.
cheers
Greg
My favorite AR—worm drive system, on my spinners, is the one found on my Zebco Cardinal's. A cog that engages the top of the pinion. What about the Shakespeare spinners in question here?
The gray Shakespeares have an AR gear behind the main gear. Take a look at Tommy's tutorial and you'll see. https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30055.msg349137#msg349137
The AR gear is keyed on the back of the main gear and the winding gear is keyed to the front, both via a squared spot on the shaft.
The gear system of the Maroons is so tough (all steel) that, while having the AR behind the gears would normally be considered a negative, I do not consider it so here. Kinda the same story with, like. the DAM Q 220.
Frank
Ok, I see 1-major difference between the 2068 & 2062; the oscillation systems. So, Vintage spinner lovers, et. al., which is the better reel in your opinion? I ask it this way, because many of the parts for these models seem to be interchangeable. Tommy & basinjib123 give a slight edge to the 2068, with that extra gear for the oscillation system.
Also, I have a parts 2062, if anyone needs anything(accept the stuff I wrecked: 2-bail screws, and the rotor with one side having the bail screw threads stripped out and the other side having a broke-off screw stuck in it). Still don't have the patience or finesse skills for some things. That bail-spring system SUCKS!, almost as much as I do...
I think the fit and finish is better on the 2068. Specifically the cover plate on the gray is dowelled and very tight tolerances that require a thumb-nail to pry the cover off.
I recently purchased a 2068 that was completely locked up everywhere. After a dip in the US with lacquer thinner it went back together without a hitch and is as smooth as butter.
-Mike